Christiaan Gerhardus
Ebersöhn
All
Sunday-Resurrectionists Refuted
Wednesday
and Friday Crossites
Thrashed
Shredded and Trashed
Part
Eight
Simulacra
Reg,
Alex, Rubies etc.
27 01 15
Christiaan Gerhardus Ebersöhn
All Sunday-Resurrectionists Refuted
Wednesday and Friday Crossites Thrashed Shredded and
Trashed
Part Eight
27 01 15
http://www.biblestudents.co.za
http://thelordsday.wordpress.com/books/
ISBN
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About |
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p180 |
5 |
First Night |
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p181 |
17 |
Suffering Pascha |
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p182 |
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Last Supper Old and Leaven of Life |
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p183 |
31 |
First day unleavened bread |
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p184 |
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Matthew 28:1 Scholars John 19:39 “First Night” |
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John 19:42 Joseph Work on sabbaths |
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p186 |
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‘first sabbath’, ‘weeks’ |
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Prepare Preparation |
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Two days Six days Mark 14:1 Matthew 26:2 “The First
Night” “High day” |
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Bone Day “came to him” Deut. 31 “day before IN”
“Shabbath Shabbathon” |
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Meatless Meal Burial Day Grave <opsios> John
20:1 |
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Bone-Day First Night John 19:39 Prepare passover |
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p192 |
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First Sheaf Fiftieth day on Sunday Crucifixion in
John 19:31 |
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p193 |
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After Sabbath dawn on First Day Idiom Luke 24 |
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p194 |
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Mark 16:9 Matthew 28:1 First sightings Visits at tomb
Same event All gospels |
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On fourteenth // on fifteenth Daniel 9 |
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p196 |
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Seventieth week
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p197 |
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Sabbaths’ Feast of Christ Home Assemblies Reformed
Protestant Faith Late on |
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Addendum |
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Religious Forums The Lost Passover |
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Conclusion |
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http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/seventh-day-adventist/TCMT0QQAME27RFJT4/p180
Reg:
The last supper was not a passover meal it was the
night before passover Christ has to die before the passover the disciples won’t
have the passover the next night on the 15th when Christ gave up his life after
sunset He had to fulfil Ex 12 He would not give up His life until then He had
that power
I have several times explained the last supper but never comment the
old covenant was to pass away the next day when Christ died and at the last he
introduced the new covenant it was not a passover supper the bread represented
His broken body for us the wine that night would never be unfermented
represented his sinlessness and the washing of the feet represented humility
which SDA,s still keep that we are all equals an represented his sinlessness
and the washing of the feet represented humility which SDA,s still keep that we
are all equals and should treat each other the same Read John 13 and 1 Cor
11:23-34 Christ spent that supper telling them that he was not going to be with
them and how to remember Him till He comes again
Alex:
Agreed but would be better said as “the Last Supper
was not a Passover meal - it was the night before Feast of the Passover/ULB 24
hours before - Christ had to die in the afternoon on 14 Nisan before the Feast
of Passover. The disciples, though disheartened with the death of their Messiah
probably had the Passover the next night on the 15th - hours after Christ gave
up his life before sunset - on the 14 Nisan.
GE:
Alright with a few questions for you, Alex,
Don’t you mean, <the Last Supper was… the
night before Feast of the Passover/ULB 24 hours> later, instead of before? Naturally the disciples were <disheartened
with the death of their Messiah>.
One must take into account the disciples’ utter
confusion and the chaos caused by the natural disasters of the “darkness”[1],
“earthquake”[2], “rent veil”[2], “opened graves”[3], and fallen-in door-lintel of the portal into
the sanctuary[4]. So the disciples could impossible have had their <passover meal> <the first night”[5]
“on the fifteenth”[6], after “when it had become evening already”[7]
three to four hours after Jesus had given his life “the ninth hour”[8]
before sunset[9] : <on the 14 Nisan>
the day before.
So the disciples rather even before Jesus had died,
would have gone into hiding in the very room where two days after “when being
evening regarding the First Day of the week, thronged-in-together-still behind
closed doors for fear of the Jews”[10], Jesus found his disciples confused
and in consternation, <disheartened
with the death of their Messiah>.
Therefore instead of Jesus’ disciples should have
buried Him, God designed Joseph and Nicodemus would come forward and without
the help of his disciples and in their absence, would bury Him in faith and
obedience to God’s Laws of the Passover of Yahweh.[11]
[1] Mark 15:33 Matthew 27:45 Luke 23:44
[2] Matthew 27:51
[3] Matthew 27:52
[4] …
[5] John 19:39
[6] Leviticus 23:6
[7] Mark 15:42 Matthew 27:57 John 19:31,38
[8] Mark 15:33,34 Matthew 27:45,46 Luke 23:44
[9] John 11:9
[10] John 20:19
[11] John 19:40 Exodus 12:10 Genesis 50:26 et al
It was ONLY Joseph—who is the only one MENTIONED—,
who dared to ask Pilate for Jesus’ body. And it was
ONLY
Nicodemus—who is the only one MENTIONED, who later on
in “the first night” of ULB, “also came to him (Joseph) there”,
where the two of them “treated the body of Jesus” and “prepared”
it for the grave.
http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/seventh-day-adventist/TCMT0QQAME27RFJT4/p197
Not one of the twelve
disciples came to or were present “where” Pilate had the body “delivered”
to, and Joseph “then treated” it. Joseph and Nicodemus undertook alone;
they were only the two of them—these two members of the Sanhedrin. Of all
Jesus’ followers they were the only who were members of the Sanhedrin; perhaps
that was why John could record,
“There came also Nicodemus to him (Joseph) who
having met at the first night (of ulb)”–‘ehlthen de kai Nikodehmos ho
elthohn pros auton nuktos to prohton’.
Under normal circumstances as members of the
Sanhedrin, Joseph and Nicodemus most likely would have met for their passover
meal-together, and there and then must between the two of them have decided to ask
Pilate for Jesus’ body as well as for permission to bury him according to the
Jews’ Ethics to Bury their Passover.
In fact, that is what the Text states, “There came
also Nicodemus to him (Joseph) who HAVING MET AT THE FIRST NIGHT (of ULB)”–‘ehlthen
de kai Nikodehmos ho ELTHOHN pros auton NUKTOS TO PROHTON’. And that may
explain the relevance of the Preposition ‘pros’ and its syntactical
accompanying Accusative in both the Pronoun ‘auton’ and the nomenclature
‘nuktos to prohton’— “for the First Night” or “at the First Night” or “on
account of” or “pertaining to” or, “for the First Night”. As follows,
“Nicodemus also came there ON ACCOUNT OF Joseph and
they HAVING MET AT THE FIRST NIGHT”—of unleavened bread!
Thank God and praise His Name for the wonderful TRUTH
in His Word! Which makes me think of yet another wonderful reality that struck
me the other day while I was thinking about Jesus’ Crucifixion and Burial, that
it is the SCRIPTURES that demand that it should happen over “two days”— “after
two days the LORD will revive us; in the third day He will raise us
up”—speaking of our God just like it is written of Him in Royal Plural at the creation
already!
Anyway, here is what struck me about the shear
stupidity of the same-day crucifixion and burial heresy for making use of
Deuteronomy 21:22,23—FALSELY of course. ‘They say’, Jesus HAD to be buried (“in
haste” they always have to add FALSELY) on the same day He was crucified and
died, “before sunset” because Deuteronomy 21 assumedly demanded it.
Now IF that were so, then what about the Jews’ concern
over the Law which prohibited them to partake in the passover meal in the night
after the sacrifice of the lamb if they had touched the body of a dead human?
These before sunset buried daft have no answer. But if after their passover
meal ---or after their would-be passover meal at this the last of all passovers
a Jew might have touched a dead, then there is no fear for getting unclean
after, and Joseph and Nicodemus could at their own time, peacefully and
meticulously, proceed “to the Ethics of the Jews” to “handle”, “prepare” and
“treat” the body of “Our Passover” and “Lamb of God” “to…” in the end, “lay Him
in the tomb”— the tomb itself even, as “in the Prophets concerning the Christ
how He ought to have suffered” according to God’s fore-knowledge and
predestination, “prepared and ready at hand”.
Alex:
Seems ok - note original wording “the Last Supper was
not a Passover meal - it was the night before Feast of the Passover/ULB 24
hours”. On that we agree. Not sure why you wanted to further when you know I
believe the Last Supper was 24 hours before Feast of the Passover/ULB.
Reg:
1 First evening beginning at twilight sun disappearing
over horizon and stars visible first evening
2 midnight halfway between sunset and sunlight first half of 24hours
3 daylight morning twilight
4 morning approximately 5 hours to midday 12 o’clock
5 midday to sunset twilight is afternoon
5 day completed at days end or 12 hours at evening
Beginning of twilight second evening the 14th day AT EVEN is the 2nd evening
sun has set lamb killed between the two evenings
1 Luke 23:54 in Greek interlineal reads, and it was
preparation and “a” sabbath was coming on NOT THE SABBATH
2 Mat 27:62 the next day that followed the day of preparation the chief Priest
and Pharisees came together unto Pilot
3 Mark 15:42 now when evening had come because it WAS the preparation the day
before sabbath
4 John 19:31 say that Sabbath was a high day Sabbath the Jews called all
ceremonial Sabbaths high day Sabbath, go to the Synagogue and ask
the Rabi
5 John 19:14 and it was the preparation of the passover
6 John 19:42 add the Jews Passover was at hand
7 John 11:55 same as John 19:42 and the Jews passover was at hand
Now look at 3 other texts on prior
1. feast days
John 2:13 and the Jews passover was at hand and Jesus went to
2. John 7:2 now the Jews feast of Tabernacles was at hand
3. John 11:55 and the Jews Passover was nigh at hand out of all these
texts Sabbath is only mentioned 3 times
Mark 15:42 day before the Sabbath
John 19:31 it was a high day Sabbath that is Luke 23”54 in Greek interlineal it
is not 7th day Sabbath but ceremonial a small a Sabbath You only have one
Sabbath mentioned against all of the other evidence John 12:1, 9th Nisan from
Friday to Wednesday Preparation 14th
Ex 12:3 10th day lamb was chosen killed on the first day of Passover Mark 14:12
between two evenings 15th at twilight 14th day AT even
Evening of Thursday Mark 14:1,2-evening 1
Thursday-Day 1
Evening of Friday-evening 2
Friday-Day 2
Evening of Sabbath-evening 3
Sabbath-Day 3
Resurrection some time on Sabbath Mat 28:1 burial time probably 2
hours after sunset at the end of the 14th at twilight 15th Luke 23:50,54
Now you show me the 7th day Sabbath in the bible that has preparation day
before it the 6 times it is used are all on the passover and that is Wednesday
GE:
“On the Sixth Day they shall prepare.” Exodus
16:5.
“The LORD hath given you the Sabbath; therefore He giveth you on the Sixth
Day the bread of two days” or “bread to prepare for two days” or “bread
to prepare for the Seventh Day….which is the Sabbath in which there shall be no
bread given.” Exodus 16.
<…preparation day before it the 6
times it is used are all on the passover>
<preparation day… are all on the
passover>
Yes and no… In Mark 15:42 the Sixth Day “The
Preparation Day WHICH is the Fore-Sabbath had BEGUN.” It was the same day which
had begun in John 19:31, “And since / because The Preparation Day had begun
and because that (same) day was great-day-sabbath (of the passover), the Jews
asked Pilate….”
The SAME day began ENDING, “by the time of the Jews’ preparations (for the
Sabbath)” John 19:42, “when the women (Mary Magdalene and the other
Mary) mid-afternoon the Sabbath approaching went home and prepared spices and
afterwards rested the (Seventh Day) Sabbath according to the
(Fourth) Commandment.” Luke 23:54-56.
“Now the morning (of the Seventh Day Sabbath) which is after the Day
of the Preparation (on the Sixth Day of the week) the chief priests and
Pharisees gathered before Pilate….” Matthew 27:62.
Mark 15:42, John 19:31, John 19:42, Luke 23:54-56 and Matthew 27:62—five times
the SAME day (‘Friday), happened to be BOTH the <preparation day> before <the
7th day Sabbath>, and, were <all
on the passover>--the passover
day “the first day (of) seven days (of) ULB”.
FIVE times ‘Friday’ is “The Preparation which is the Fore-Sabbath” as well
as <the passover> indeed the “great-day-sabbath-of
(the passover)”.
IN STARKEST CONTRAST John wrote in 19:14 that “It was The
Preparation-OF-PASSOVER six o’clock in the morning” when Jesus was handed
over to be crucified; and “it was The Preparation-OF-PASSOVER” STILL,
its “ninth hour” (“being in the daylight mid-afternoon”), when
Jesus had DIED. That is another story all together than yours, Reg.
Reg:
you only have One 7th day Sabbath to place it in
the Passover and that’s Luke 23:56 and it is not there You wanted to know
where they are called Sabbaths Luke 23:54 and in Greek Interlineal it is called
a Sabbath definitely not the Sabbath Mark 15:42 is after the end of 14th day AT
even and this is Thursday and Sabbath is used for Thursday John 19:31 it is
called a High day Sabbath which I have explained as Ceremonial
Gerhard you haven’t by any chance married Rubie she was on about no text
calling ceremonial days Sabbath what’s the difference in Holy Convocation and
Sabbath they both had the same restrictions the day of Atonement is called
Sabbath show me where it is called Sabbath show me where it is any different to
the other feast day
Also Rubie says preparation means Friday look it up it means Eve of a special
event preparing for Christmas is called Christmas Eve you can apply it before
your birthday or the day before a journey
Gerhard you have been fighting Ruby to long you are starting to talk like her
the Sabbath is not Jewish but the ceremonial law is every one of those text and
I have added other say the Jews preparation day are all ceremonial they were
the ceremonial laws given to the Jews Ex 31 the 7th day Sabbath is not Jewish
but the Sabbath of the Lord thy God given thousands of years before
Abraham ceremonial Holy days are Jewish
Luke 23:54 in Greek interlineal reads, and it was
preparation and a sabbath was coming on NOT THE SABBATH
GE:
Really, Amazing! Your interlinear has an <a>? From which word of the Text? O
from 'nothing', in the Greek I see?! I thought your <interlineal> was 'literal'; now I hear I was mistaken; it gives
an English word for a Greek word that isn't there. Funny. O no no no no
sorry --- you mean, --- now I see! --- you mean the word IS there; it's the
Greek word, 'sabbatohn' which YOUR interlinear, interprets with the word
'sabbath'.
Now what is easier, I mean for a layman like myself, to read and understand
honest to goodness what I see in the Greek, “that day was Preparation and
_Sabbath_ was coming on” --- THE ‘SABBATH’?!....the very 'Sabbath' in fact
a few lines further on is said to be “THE SABBATH according to the
Commandment” --– “THE SABBATH according to the Commandment” in the
Fourth Commandment naturally.
So by the buy, dear Reg, get yourself a STRAIGHT <lineal> to draw your <interlineal>
conclusions with, not such crooked ones like your interlineal's <“a” sabbath>.
It may help. Or it won't I'm persuaded rather. Or read Rubies’ genuine
critique on your <interlineal “a”
sabbath>---she’s done a good job there.
Reg:
The last supper was …. the night before passover
GE:
The Last Supper was “night”— “this night”—
“I will pass through the land of Egypt” John 13:30 Exodus 12:12. It was “the
Passover of the LORD” before the
passover of the Jews.
What is easier to understand? What, more obvious?! <Passover> was AS WELL AS “on the fourteenth day KILL the
passover” AS on “the FEAST” of passover “on the fifteenth day ye
shall EAT ULB”. But he who doesn’t WANT to hear SHALL not hear—GOD has
made him deaf.
Alex:
Agreed
Reg:
Resurrection some time on Sabbath Mat 28:1 burial time
probably 2 hours after sunset at the end of the 14th at twilight 15th Luke
23:50,54
I believe that the greatest part of all English Bibles
were the work of the Holy Spirit through the interpreters and the decisions
made were God breathed, but there are some that are more resent that in some
places lean on tradition and not Gods word.
Greek is quoted to prove the English wrong by those who disagree with what is
said your rendering is only one among the many men that wrote the translations
who discuss all and come to an agreement on their translations I except that
the Holy Spirit inspired them on what to agree on
Now I am posting the 22 bibles on Mat 28:1 now can you show me all the ones
that have a Sunday resurrection
Matthew 28:1
1 Standard Versions “In the end of the Sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the
first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the
sepulcher. “—
2 Authorized Version. “Late on the Sabbath day.” A.R.V., R. V.
3 Catholic Version “In the end of the Sabbath.”
4 . Historic English Translations
5 Wiclif, 1880 “But in the euentide of the Saboth.”
6 Tyndale, 1534.—”The Sabboth daye at even.”
7 Granmer, 1539.—”Vpon an euening of the Sabbothes.”
8
9
Independent Translations
10 “Late on the Sabbath day.” American Baptist Improved, Moulton.
11 “Late on the Sabbath.” Darby.
13 “After the sabbaths.*” Fenton.
14 “In the end of the Sabbath.” Newberry
15 “Late in the week.”
16 “On the eve of the sabbaths.” Young.
17 “At the end of the Sabbath.” Centenary New Testament.
18 “It is the evening of the sabbaths.” Concordant.
19 “Late in the Sabbath.” Von Tischendorf.
20 “After the Sabbath.” Goodspeed.
21 Twentieth Century, Weymoutn.
22 “Late on Sabbath.” Interlinear Greek.
23 “At the close of the Sabbath.” Moffatt.
24 “In the close of the Sabbath.” Syriac.
GE:
Reg, in Matthew 28:1 <the Sabbath is used> where it <has preparation day before it…on the passover>—EXACTLY!
Now Reg, you deny it, <Now you show me the 7th day Sabbath in the bible that has preparation
day before it the 6 times it is used are all on the passover>!
Reg:
how mwny of the Mar 28:1 texts are on Sunday morning
i am going to continue to post them untill i get answers. there is only one way
this this discussion is going to be 100% Gods word deletes errors one at a time
so you choose which are Sabbath resurections and which are Sunday resurrections
and we can have a definite answer to the problem, then i will post problem 2
and so on untill Gods truth on the passover has been sensibly debated and
tradition is replaced with truth
GE:
I only hope and pray you are going to stand by what
you say!
Reg:
John 12:1--,6 days before
the passover John arived at
eve of Thursday nignt 1 Thursday day 1
Eve of Friday night 2 friday day 2
Eve of Sabbath night 3 Sabbath reserection day 3
it is the only way it all fits together.
GE:
Reg says <Ex 12:6,18 the lamb was killed after the
14th day on the eve of the 15th”.
Exodus 12:6,18 states “on the fourteenth”—not <after the 14th> and not <on
the eve of the 15th>, but “mid-afternoon-– “ / “late on the fourteenth”.
And what makes <… this is Friday>
… <John 12:1--,6 days before the
passover John arived at
For example, you say <John [Sic.] arived [Sic.] at
“After (Sabbath Abib 9 came) six days”
before Friday Abib 15.
“After” ‘Sunday’ Abib 10 came five days before Friday
Abib 15.
“After” ‘Monday’ Abib 11 came four days before Friday Abib 15.
“After” ‘Tuesday’Abib 12 came three days before Friday Abib 15.
“After” ‘Wednesd’Abib 13 came two days before Friday Abib 15.
“After” ‘Thursday’Abib 14 came one day before Friday Abib 15.
“After” ‘Friday’ Abib 15 came no day(s) before Friday Abib 15.
Or put it this way…
The “Days” of the passover feast of ULB started on Abib 15 “great day
sabbath … since that day was The Preparation … which is the Fore-Sabbath”—‘Friday’.
Therefore
One day “before” ‘Friday’ was Thursday Abib 14;
Two days “before” ‘Friday’ was Wednesday Abib 13;
Three days “before” ‘Friday’ was Tuesday Abib 12;
Four days “before” ‘Friday’ was Monday Abib 11;
Five days “before” ‘Friday’ was Sunday Abib 10;
“Six days before” ‘Friday’, was Sabbath Abib 9;
The day of the week which won the day of Jesus'
Resurrection won the Day of God's and of God's People's Sabbath Day of
Worship-Rest. Jesus' Resurrection from the dead is what makes all the
difference to the day of the week He rose from the dead on.
http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/seventh-day-adventist/TCMT0QQAME27RFJT4/p181
Samie:
What is called the Last Supper is the eating of
Passover by our Lord with His disciples, on the night He was arrested. The
question of the disciples: “Where do You want us to prepare for You to eat the
Passover?” (NKJ Matt 26:17; Mark 14:12)
The statements of our Lord: NKJ Luke 22:8 And He sent Peter and John, saying, “Go
and prepare the Passover for us, that we may eat.” NKJ Matt 26:18 ... “My time
is at hand; I will keep the Passover at your house with My disciples.”
The Passover eaten by our Lord with His disciples on the night before He was
arrested is what is termed the Last Supper.
GE:
USE the actual, real, and true meaning of the word
'pathein' / 'to pascha’, while you read, “Where do you want us to prepare
for you to eat your SUFFERING?” “And He sent Peter and John, saying, Go
and prepare My Suffering for us, that we may eat. My time is at hand; I will
keep My Suffering at your house with My disciples.”
The “SUFFERING”, “eaten” by our Lord with His disciples the night He was
arrested on, is what is termed “The SUFFERING”— “the
Passover-of-Yahweh”.
What we, <termed>, ‘the Last
Supper’ was the first “Lord’s Supper” as Paul <termed> it; and the “bread” and “wine” that Jesus’ disciples in
that night ate and drank on Jesus’ Command, were <termed> “my body” and “my blood” respectively by Jesus Himself.
As impossible the disciples literally or physically
ate and drank Jesus’ flesh and blood, as impossible Jesus literally or
physically ate and drank of the “bread” and “wine” that night—because, “The
very first day above all thou shalt REMOVE LEAVEN”—THE LEAVEN OF CHRIST
JESUS’ LIFE. Jesus the Prime-Obedient to the Law, “The very first day
above all” WOULD NOT EAT, “BREAD”—leavened “bread”; NOR WOULD DRINK, “WINE”—
fermented “wine”. He had a “Body Prepared for (Him)” of which “the
LIFE was in the blood”, which LIFE “in this that night”, “He had
to SUFFER”, “TO LAY IT DOWN” and “HAD TO SUFFER” it be, “REMOVED”.
Samie:
Was it full moon when Jesus ate Passover that night He
was arrested? Yes, the first full moon after the spring equinox. It was
the night after sunset Tuesday, March 27, 31 AD. It was Nisan,
the Passover month, in the calendar of the Jews. It was then Nisan 14.
Christ was crucified Wednesday, March 28. 3 days and 3 nights later, He
resurrected early Saturday morning, March 31.
GE:
What is called the “PASSOVER” in those Scriptures
-- which
the Lord Jesus “with great desire desired to eat
with you before I suffer”, was “TO SUFFER”—‘pathein’: “to suffer” the
PASSOVER-OF-YAHWEH SUFFERING OF DEATH.
Jesus WILLED to “lay down (his) LIFE”. “The zeal of [for] Thine House has EATEN
ME UP … DESTROY This Temple (of Jesus’ Life)… the Temple of his body… and in
three days I will raise it up.… When therefore He was risen from the DEAD his
disciples remembered that He had said this, to them (the zeal of / for Thine
House has EATEN ME UP).”
“With great desire I desired to eat with you before I suffer”—‘pro tou me pathein’—Infinitive
of Noun Force; “With great desire I desired to EAT MY SUFFERING.” The
Infinitive of Noun Force is the indubitable explanation for Jesus’ immediate
negation of what He had just expressed as his most fervent “desire to eat This
Passover…”— “the Passover of Yahweh”, “…for I say unto you I WILL NOT BY ANY
MEANS EAT IT until it be fulfilled in the Kingdom of God.”
Even this declaration of Jesus, rightly may, and in fact ought, to be
read as prophecy of his last PASSOVER-SUFFERING OF DYING THE DEATH OF
DEATH—,
“… for I say unto you I will not by any means EAT THIS PASSOVER TILL I
FULFILLED EATING IT in the Kingdom of God”— “fulfilled eating it IN THE
KINGDOM OF GOD”— in the Kingdom of God “THIS NIGHT”, for “in
this night”, “the Kingdom of God” was where, and what, Jesus
had “entered into”. He entered “into the
His Suffering, was Jesus’ Bread and Cup. He ate and drank the ‘Pascha-of-His-Suffering’.
He, “suffering”, ate and drank.
Jesus’, was a spiritual eating; an eating and drinking of the TRUE Passover of
Yahweh. The disciples’, was mere eating and drinking of bread and wine in
spirit as far away absent from Jesus or the Kingdom of God’s dear Son as the
local pub from heaven. Like real drunks they noisily left the room and cavilled
over who’s the greatest big shot and like real drunkards they fell asleep while
they ought to have “suffered-with” Jesus in HIS DARKEST HOUR IN THE KINGDOM OF
HEAVEN.
‘Naturally’, it was full moon when Jesus ate Passover
that
night He was arrested; what’s your issue?! And
yes, “to its season” it was the first full moon after the spring
equinox. And exactly according to the passover Law, it was “night”
after sunset. But who told you it was <31 AD>— <Tuesday, March
27, 31 AD>?! No one! Not God! Nor astrometrics, sir. Nonsense! It
is you, Samie, who BEFORE decided it has to be the year <31 AD> and <Tuesday, March 27, 31 AD>. It is you, as were you God,
declaring, <Christ was crucified
Wednesday, March 28.> LIKE it is you, as were you the Scripture, writing
further, <3 days and 3 nights later,
He resurrected earlySaturday morning, March 31.>
Reg:
it is Zondervan’s Parallel New Testament in Greek and
English that translates “a Sabbath was coming on” Do you want
me to answer as you answer me, you would have no problem getting a job as
a clown in the circus but as a representative of Jesus Christ that I read about
His life you would never make it Christ said let others see Him in you,
GE:
…and I am supposed to see Christ in Reg in this ?!
Alex:
Being a mid week
crucifixionist - I guess that includes me. Golly. Remember salvation is not
based on crossite theory.
Matthew 26:17 – “Now on the first day of unleavened
bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying, ‘Where wilt thou that we make ready
for thee to eat the passover?’” Source: [Cut]
As for leaven and sin [Cut]
GE:
Forget your or my <salvation basis> – it is for God to decide and I'm not the least
interested in yours.
A <mid week crucifixionist> ---
what's that?! Ridiculous! I know I know I know Daniel’s 70 weeks prophecy .... Well you made it a… your, ‘YEARS’-prophecy
already. Now you want your slice of bread buttered both sides, so you converted
your 70th YEARS week into a seven DAYS 70th week prophecy. How absurd do
you want to further get and convert your 7 days into a <mid week> of day-HOURS, and even then no true middle, but a 9
hours off-centre and false <mid-week>
of days and hours? Trash! EXTRA-BIBLICAL trash! It has nothing, based on the passover and it has nothing
based on prophecy and it has nothing based on Scripture --- nor on algebra,
or, on accurate numbers, or, on logic, or, word, or, letter or anything!
The Gospels in unison and in perfect agreement state nothing on that day of
Jesus’ death or crucifixion or suffering whatsoever. Therefore being a <mid-week crucifixionist> is the most
absurd and un-Biblical thing I have ever heard of.
The Gospels state in unison and in perfect agreement
that Joseph buried Jesus’ body “That Day (which) was The Preparation
… which is the Fore-Sabbath”—, “after (which) Preparation Day, the
(Jews) the next morning came to Pilate … and / but LATE ON THE SABBATH THERE
WAS A GREAT EARTHQUAKE (when) the angel of the Lord descending from heaven CAST
THE STONE FROM THE GRAVE…” WHEN “CHRIST ROSE FROM THE DEAD THE THIRD DAY”.
<MANY SDA's believe WEDNESDAY
Crucifixion, WHY?> The past week I saw it happen with my own ears having
learned of this --- inevitable --- evil from bad to worse.
Subtitle proposed for this discussion ...
‘Out of Legalism into Idolatry’ – “You superstitiously worship
days, months, seasons, years, I am afraid I have
bestowed my
labour on you in vain.” Galatians 4:10,11.
.
Reg:
You and Alex also Rubie cannot put the passover week
together LK 23:52 This man went unto Pilate, and
begged the body of Jesus. 53 And he took it down, and wrapped it in linen, and
laid it in a sepulchre that was hewn in stone, wherein never man before was
laid. 54 And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on. 55 And the
women also, which came with him from Galilee, followed after, and beheld the
sepulchre, and how his body was laid.---is the burial of Jesus V54 is
THE PASSOVER SABBATH John 19:14 the women spoken of here were with Joseph
helping in the burial sun had already set when Joseph went to Pilot Mat 27:57, Mark
15:42
GE:
<V54 is THE
PASSOVER SABBATH> as defined and identified and stipulated and proven, “mid-afternoon
ending towards the Sabbath” which began as defined and identified and
stipulated and proven in John 19:31 and parallels Mark 15:42 Matthew 27:57—not,
in <John 19:14> at least 30
hours before, the previous morning “6 o’clock a.m. the
Preparation-OF-THE-PASSOVER”!!
Now you, quote directly, <John 19:14
the women spoken of here were with Joseph helping in the burial the sun had
already set when Joseph went to Pilot>! I tell in the Name of the
Christ I am supposed to see in you, to QUOTE it!
Reg:
LK 23:50 And, behold, there was a man named Joseph, a
counsellor; and he was a good man, and a just: 51 (The same had not consented
to the counsel and deed of them;) he was of Arimathaea, a city of the Jews: who
also himself waited for the kingdom of God. 52 This man went unto Pilate, and
begged the body of Jesus. 53 And he took it down, and wrapped it in linen, and
laid it in a sepulchre that was hewn in stone, wherein never man before was
laid. 54 And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on.
Mark 15:45-47 Now you three have a large problem Sabbath had begun LK
23:54 And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on. 55 And the
women also, which came with him from Galilee, followed after, and beheld the
sepulchre, and how his body was laid.---Jesus already in the grave so to you
this is Sabbath Did they have Gentile shops then that were open for
business on Sabbath
GE:
Why would they need shops? To “prepare spices” they
already HAD?
<This> is not to me, <Sabbath>. That’s you, lying about me.
<This> according to all four
Gospels, particularly John 19:31, “was great day of sabbath THAT DAY” of
the passover—, “which is The Fore-Sabbath … The Preparation” the Sixth
Day of the week.
Reg:
MK 16:1 And when the
sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had
bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.---has your answer
compare with--- LK 23:56 And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments;
and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.---Mark 16:1 when the
sabbath was passed they bought the spices now that has to be Friday because… LK
23:56 that after they had prepared them they rested another Sabbath the 7th day
V56 Friday was the day in between two sabbaths when they bought and prepared
the ointments Also Mary Magdalene was with them if it had been after the 7th
day Sabbath you can write of John 20:1-17 from just before sunset Sabbath Mt
28:1 when she found the tomb empty and meeting Jesus probable an hour after
sunset because Mark 16:1 she was with the women who you claim prepared them
before Sabbath Friday when it was after the passover Sabbath on Friday the
ointments were bought and prepared then they rested the 7th day sabbath Luke
23:56
Gerard and whoever else it may concern if you reject Christ Law the 10C because
it was Him at creation and Sinai you have written your name out of the book of
life Call me a liar and I will post thus says the Lord on every one of
your posts to prove you don’t believe the word of God the way you treat others
is more than enough to do that how they see you there is a Hymn do others see
Jesus in me how they see Jesus in you Why don’t you put in a post asking
others it could give you eternal life Now show me were Luke 23:54 in my
Zondervan’s Greek is not right it was Thursday a Sabbath not the 7th the 7th
day Sabbath
GE:
<Now>
it is you, Reg, who make of Zondervan’s
a lying witness because it’s you, saying Zondervan’s says <it was Thursday>! Reg is the lying,
false, witness! Concocted of lies upon lies upon lies the SDA pastor Reg
declares, <John 20:1-17 from just
before sunset Sabbath Mt 28:1 when she (Mary) found the tomb empty and meeting
Jesus>. No word of truth! That's it. For the umpteenth time I have
done with Reg. But this time it's final. I have done with Reg as I have done
with all SDAs and all Wednesday and Friday crossites. I cannot think of
anything, more to say about this non-issue the WC theory is.
Reg:
Gerhard you say John 12:1 is not Friday 6 days before
Passover V2 says they made Him a supper in between was
after Sabbath, Saturday night So Friday was the 9th Sabbath the 10th Sunday
evening after Sabbath the 11th and all that happens that night supper Mary
Anointed Jesus Judas betrayal
The next day Sunday He rode triumphantly into Jerusalem =Sunday 11th Now
you have Him arriving at Jerusalem that day, so do the first 3
Gospels Then everything John wrote from John 10:22 to John 12:11 is a lie
there is a lie there is a problem here Mathew, Mark, and Luke have the walk
from Jericho to Jerusalem in the spring arriving on Sunday the 11th but John
from--- JN 10:22 And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it
was winter.---John 12:1 is in the winter time making His walk from Jericho 3
months earlier and John wrote his Gospel 20 years later and filled in what the
first 3 gospel writers left out
Sunday 11 Jesus was in the temple at sun set beginning ot Monday Mark
11:11
Monday 12 first day in temple
Tuesday 13 last day in temple
Tuesday 13 on the Mount of Olives
Tuesday---MK 14:1 After two days was the feast of the passover, and of
unleavened bread: and the chief priests and the scribes sought how they might
take him by craft, and put him to death.
MK 14:2 But they said, Not on the feast day, lest there be an uproar of the
people.
Passover on 15th Thursday
Ex 12:3 the 10th choosing the lamb Sabbath V6 14th day at evening is the 15th
first day of Passover---MK 14:12 And the first day of unleavened bread, when
they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we
go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?---between the 2 evenings 1st
day of 7 from 15th to 21st
Evening Thursday ---evening 1=15th
Thursday----------day
evening Friday -------evening 2=16th
Friday---------- day
Evening Sabbath -----evening 3=17th
Sabbath ----------day 3 Reservation Mat 28:1
The first evening is the 15th---DEUT 16:3 Thou shalt
eat no
leavened bread with it; seven days shalt thou eat
unleavened bread therewith, even the bread of affliction; for thou camest forth
out of the
DEUT 16:4 And there shall be no leavened bread seen with thee in all thy coast
seven days; neither shall there any thing of the flesh, which thou sacrificedst
the first day at even, remain all night until the morning. 5 Thou mayest not
sacrifice the passover within any of thy gates, which the LORD thy God giveth
thee: 6 But at the place which the LORD thy God shall choose to place his name
in, there thou shalt sacrifice the passover at even, at the going down of the
sun, at the season that thou camest forth out of Egypt.
EX 12:15 Seven days shall ye eat unleavened bread; even the first day ye shall
put away leaven out of your houses: for whosoever eateth leavened bread from
the first day until the seventh day, that soul shall be cut off from
EX 12:18 In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at even, ye
shall eat unleavened bread, until the one and twentieth day of the month at
even. 19 Seven days shall there be no leaven found in your houses: for
whosoever eateth that which is leavened, even that soul shall be cut off from
the congregation of
EX 13:6 Seven days thou shalt eat unleavened bread, and in the seventh day
shall be a feast to the LORD. 7 Unleavened bread shall be eaten seven days; and
there shall no leavened bread be seen with thee, neither shall there be leaven
seen with thee in all thy quarters.
EX 23:15 Thou shalt keep the feast of unleavened bread:(thou shalt eat
unleavened bread seven days, as I commanded thee, in the time appointed of the
month Abib; for in it thou camest out from Egypt: and none shall appear before
me empty:)
DEUT 16:6 But at the place which the LORD thy God shall choose to place his
name in, there thou shalt sacrifice the passover at even, at the going down of
the sun, at the season that thou camest forth out of
The passover lamb was killed after the beginning of the 15th when the sun went
down this is almost 50 years after the Exodus This is Gods word you have a
choice 1 to believe God of the OT or Gerhard and Alex who claim 8 days, your
decision will tell who you worship the creator or the created Christ or Alex
who has 8 days
Christ was crucified on the 14th but died at twilight on the 15th between the 2
evenings at the going down of the sun
Alex:
Reg - the Last Supper on 14 Nisan was on Day of
Preparation / Lord's Passover, 24 hours before the Feast of ULB. In support of
8 days of ULB, with the Feast occurring on the 2nd of 8 days -
Luke 22:7 “Then came the day of unleavened bread, when the passover must be
killed.”
The question you must ask is - is this day the 14 Nisan or 15 Nisan? Was the
Passover killed on 14th or 15th Nisan? If the 14th then it correlates perfectly
with Exodus 12:18 and keeps the 7 days of Feast of ULB (once the sacrifice is
killed) in Deuteronomy.
A reminder that “at even” is after noon on 14 Nisan for time was needed to take
the dead sacrifice and roast it for it to be eaten that evening on 15 Nisan at
the Feast of ULB.
The bread at the Last Supper would have been ULB for Christ was without sin. 1
John 3:5 “And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him
is no sin.”
Can we please dispense with the unnecessary comments - “...to believe
God of the OT or Gerhard and Alex who claim 8 days, your decision will
tell who you worship the creator or the created Christ or Alex who has 8
days”. This type of wording is false as it reciprocally in your mind
establishes that those who believe a strict 7 day ULB are of the devil and only
you are of God. It therefore becomes an egotistical statement - something which
I try to refrain from making to others. It certainly does not advance your
argument in a sincere way. Fact is 14th “at even” to 21st “at even” is 8 days
not 7. I want no one to worship me and certainly not on account of Scriptural
interpretation on which many topics, including this one, sadly, are varied.
Even if I and others are wrong on this particular interpretation, despite Luke
22:7 and other, including Gospel, verses not mentioned, salvation is by grace
not by “theological discussions” or crossites theory. I like nutting things out
but my local Pastor reminded me of the simplicity of salvation. Nevertheless
you still have verses like Luke 22:7 to contend with. Christ was not alive in
body at start 15 Nisan - that day being the first of three. Your statement of “The
passover lamb was killed after the beginning of the 15th when the sun went down”
cannot be true.
http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/seventh-day-adventist/TCMT0QQAME27RFJT4/p182
Reg:
these 3 texts have the cart before the horse
Mat 26:20, precede Mat 26:17 the last supper
Mark 14:17:18 precedes 14:12 the last supper
Luke 22:14 precedes 22:7 last supper Last supper was on the beginning of
14th Wednesday preparation of passover The first day of ULB and passover is the
15th Mark 14:12 are all the 7 days of passover being killed on 14th day at even
and not the 14th day there IS NOT ONE TEXT with 8 days use Gods word for the
passover Your word is worth nothing
GE:
Smart Reg! <Last
supper was on the beginning of 14th
Wednesday preparation of
passover The first day of ULB and passover is the 15th>
The Last Supper was on the beginning of the 14thWednesday
night Mark 14:17 Matthew 26:20 Luke 22:14 John 13:30
1Corinthians 11:23—, the beginning of the 14th “The Preparation of Passover”
John 19:14, “the first day without leaven [‘adzumos’] when they always had
to kill the passover” Mark 14:12 Matthew 26:17 Luke 22:7 John 13:1.
<The first
day of ULB and passover is the 15th>
>— exactly, Reg indeed, exactly as you said!
Alex:
The Last Supper on 14 Nisan was on Day of Preparation /
Lord's Passover, 24 hours before the Feast of ULB. In support of 8 days of ULB,
with the Feast occurring on the 2nd of 8 days.
GE:
Only one amendment, actually a correction, as
follows,
The Last Supper on 14 Nisan was on the day of
“The-Preparation-of-the-Passover-of-Yahweh” John 19:14—CORRECT! Which was
24 hours before the Feast of ULB—CORRECT! Which is in support of an
8-days-of-passover, passover--CORRECT.
But this <8
days of ULB> is NOT <8 days of
ULB>, but 8-days-of-passover, consisting of “the first day of / for
seven days ULB” PRECEDED by “the first, first day ye shall REMOVE LEAVEN”
and “KILL the passover (sacrifice) on”— “the fourteenth day of the
month”.
The Feast of ULB occurred from on the 2nd of the 8 days of the
Passover-Feast(-Period), from “on the first day thou shalt not eat anything
leavened… (for)… seven days thou shalt eat ULB”. Exodus 12:15.
“The Preparation of the Passover” WAS passover; “Seven days ULB” of passover
also were passover.
Remember it is Josephus and not the Law who called the passover an eight days <feast>. The Law calls both the “seven
days ULB” and “this day—the fourteenth day ye shall kill the passover …
a memorial a FEAST to the LORD—a FEAST by Ordinance / Law / Ethics /
Institution / Service”.
Alex:
GE - exactly as I thought.
GE:
…we shall see … I don’t have <8 days of ULB>. The Law in Deuteronomy speaks of the Feast of
ULB in terms of “six” and “seven” days. The Feast of ULB is never spoken of in
terms of “seven” and “eight”, days. Not even in Josephus; he speaks of the
whole passover period as an eight-days 'Feast'.
Alex:
The bread at the Last Supper would have been ULB for
Christ was without sin.
GE:
The SDA taught you that. History tells you the
Last Supper because it was the last meal at the goings in of the day on which
LEAVEN WAS REMOVED, was still leavened. 'Bedikat Gamets' is the Jewish
equivalent at the beginning of the fourteenth day of Abib. The search for
leaven only began after this meal and next morning was celebrated with a
bonfire of the 'found' leaven.
Alex:
Christ was not alive in body at start 15 Nisan - that
day being the first of three.
GE:
Why do you conclude --- <that day being the first of three>?!
I know… but Jesus was not <three days and three nights in the grave>, as the WCs say. It is
not, what any Scripture says. Therefore, Why?! 15 Nisan being “the first (of)
SEVEN days ulb” yes!—Exodus 12:15,19; 13:6,7; 23:15; 34:18 Leviticus 23:6
Numbers 28:17 Deuteronomy 16:3,4,8 three 10+1 times “seven days ulb”! Not eight
days unleavened bread!
Alex:
The bread at the Last
Supper would have been ULB for Christ was without sin.
GE:
The bread at the Last Supper had to be leavened
because Christ was ALIVE still, and his body and blood symbolically would give
LIFE when eaten in Faith in the Lord's Supper.
“OLD leaven” --- the idea of sinfulness is contained in the word and concept of
“old” and age or creeping death --- not in the concept or word,
'leaven'. 'Leaven' rather conveys the ideas of Spirit and LIFE in the
Bible throughout!
http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/seventh-day-adventist/TCMT0QQAME27RFJT4/p183
Alex:
GE - Matthew 26:17 – “Now
on the first day of unleavened bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying, ‘Where
wilt thou that we make ready for thee to eat the passover?’”
Source: [Cut] [Cut] states— “the only way to prove from the Bible
that the bread was unleavened is to verify that Jesus ate the Last Supper on
the 14th of Nisan—the actual Passover.”
GE:
Denied. On the contrary, Exodus 12:15 emphatically
commands that “ye shall REMOVE leaven the very first day” which was “the
fourteenth day of the First Month”. Now the ‘matstsah’–”leavened bread”
eaten “on the fourteenth … that NIGHT” was eaten after the lamb had been slain
so that “the flesh” was eaten “WITH ULB”, “in THAT NIGHT”—clearly a
So, leaven was only “REMOVED” on the fourteenth. But it was EATEN after sunset
on the fourteenth—in
When
Now I do NOT say Jesus ate the ‘Bedikat-Chametz-Meal’; but that He in its “HOUR”—in
its time-of-day—instituted what became called “The Lord’s Supper”--- ‘Supper’
of leavened – any ‘leavened’, “bread”— as long as it was ‘ordinary bread’ which
is always, leavened, “bread” in the Hebrew as well as NT Greek— “artos”. It
does not matter what the LXX does in Levticus 8:2. It has no authority in this
instance. The Hebrew is “ULB”–‘matstsah’. And Mark 14:12 and Matthew 26:17
both have the same—, which is NO words ‘feast’, or, ‘bread’, but is just
‘a-dzumos’, an Adjectival Verbal Noun, “to become without leaven” or “to
de-leaven”, as in Mark 14:12, “Then on the first day of un-leaven(ing) (or)
de-leaven(ing) (or) WITHOUT LEAVEN WHEN THEY ALWAYS HAD TO KILL the passover”—,
exactly like when they at first had left Egypt. This is the DEFINING part which
was in the evening-start of the fourteenth: “on the first day WHEN THEY
ALWAYS HAD TO KILL the passover …”, “late”– ‘ereb’, “mid-afternoon between
the (third and) fourth watches of days on the fourteenth day of the First Month”
– ‘behn-ha-arba-yim’.
Alex:
As for leaven and sin [Cut]
Steve Shirley:
Whenever leaven is mentioned in the Bible (22 times in
the Old Testament and 17 times in the New Testament), it always (or almost
always) represents sin or evil. The first instance in which this word is used
is found in (Ex 12:15).”
Because leaven is equated with sin throughout the Bible, the “unleavened bread”
pictured bread (Jesus) without sin in it.
GE:
Shirley starts from an
unfounded assertion; then attempts to ‘prove’ his assertion with instances of
no proof. His proof-text, Ex 12:15 in
no way suggests sin. In fact, he contradicts the meaning of the text because
Exodus 12:15 tells the PEOPLE to remove all leaven. It doesn’t tell them to
remove all their sins. What would they need the passover sacrifice for if they
could have removed their sins with removing leaven from their
houses? Shirley starts from an unfounded assertion; then without any
proof-case of relevance, claims he has proved <“unleavened bread” pictured bread (Jesus) without sin in it”.
The lamb for passover sacrifice had to be “without blemish” itself and typified
Jesus without sin in Himself. Unleavened showed the death of the perfect lamb;
leavened bread showed its LIFE. And so with Jesus the Lamb of God who is
called the “Bread of LIFE”—the sinless LEAVENED Bread of Life.
Shirley:
… a “blood sacrifice” … was not to be offered with leavened bread (Ex 23:18)(Ex
34:25)…
GE:
… which is wrong, opposite what is actually written. Exodus 23:17,18,
“Ye shall bring two loaves … baken WITH LEAVEN … and ye shall offer WITH THE
(LEAVENED) BREAD seven lambs… an offering unto the LORD of SWEET SAVOUR.”
Sin cannot be a sweet savour unto the LORD but leaven was.
Shirley:
It is interesting to note, however, that for a peace offering (Lev 7:13) and
wave offering (Lev 23:17) God commanded that leaven be used.
GE:
Significantly, yes! Because Jesus’ LIFE brought on our peace. Again, it
only confirms leaven in the Bible much rather signifies the SINLESS LIFE OF
CHRIST TAKEN AWAY for an atonement for our sinful life.
Shirley:
The key is that you only need to add a very small amount of fermented dough to
make new dough rise.(Gal 5:9) describes this saying, “a little leaven leaveneth
the whole lump.
GE:
Yes; that’s the <key>. It’s not sin which is the key.
Rather,
… the function of yeast or fermentation can be compared with the working of the
Holy Spirit bringing the Light of Jesus into one’s life, Ephesians 5:8-10 “For
ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord : walk as children
of the light for the FRUIT OF LIGHT [SPIRIT] in all goodness and righteousness
and truth proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.” A <very small amount> of Jesus’ Divine LIFE—like the yeast of life
or the leaven of the Spirit—enlightens everything in all of God’s children.
There is NO justification for Shirley’s illegitimate application, <Carrying this out to sin, it can be said
that “a little sin can wind up destroying the whole body.>
Carrying the similitude of the leaven out to the Life of the Lord is the real
and positive meaning which is to assure true believers. It must be said of
JESUS who is our Righteousness, that “a little leaven” of HIS LIFE will fill
and let “grow with the growth of God, the whole Body of Christ’s Own.” Colossians
2:19.
Shirley:
In the second instance,
Jesus compared the false teaching (sin) of the Pharisees and Sadducees with
leaven (Mt 16:6-12).
In the third, Jesus warned of the leaven of Herod (he was evil and immoral: Mt
4:1-12, Mk 6:14-29, Lk 3:18-21, Lk 23:7-12) and again the Pharisees (Mk 8:15).
In the fourth, Jesus said, “Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees which is
hypocrisy” (sin)(Lk 12:1).
GE:
Yes indeed when it is Jesus Himself who defines the leaven of the Pharisees
as hypocrisy, who will protest?! But where it is God who Himself instructs his
children on the meaning of the leaven of the Bread-of-Life, who is going to
define it as the leaven of the Pharisees which is hypocrisy?!
Shirley:
In (1 Cor 5:8), Paul also gives us a great contrast between leavened (sin)
and unleavened (sin free) bread, comparing leaven with “malice and wickedness”
and unleavened bread with “sincerity and truth.
GE:
Shirley gives a faulty
interpretation. The ‘key-word’, here, is not the word ‘leaven’, but the word “OLD,
leaven—the leaven-OF-MALICE and wickedness”
Why does Shirley not quote the text fully?! Because it is an old malady of
expositors to rigidly sort words into categories of no exceptions, <almost always> to bolster some of
other extremist ideology.
But let’s look closer at the words which Paul used. He ends verse 8 saying, “Let
us feast … with REMOVING LEAVEN / UN-LEAVENING”—which ‘leaven’? “Let us feast
in / with / by (the) removing of sincerity and truth” of the “OLD leaven”
and “leaven-of-MALICE-and-wickedness.”
“in / with / by (the) removing”—‘en’ Preposition plus DATIVE—Modal Dative /
Dative of Means / Dative and Preposition of RELATION!
So here Paul actually supplies a VIVID SPIRITUAL Christian application of the
passover-feast specifically wherein is CELEBRATED
THE REMOVAL OF OLD LEAVEN. Here only, Paul makes the feast one of the
removing of the “OLD leaven” of the PEOPLE’S “malice and wickedness” AS WELL AS
of Jesus’ NEW LIFE that He had obtained “in / with / by REMOVING” the leaven (Life) of his own and only sinless life.
Shirley:
Jesus said, “Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees which is hypocrisy” (sin)(Lk
12:1).”
GE:
Yes indeed when it is Jesus Himself who defines the leaven of the Pharisees
as hypocrisy, the leaven of the Pharisees is, hypocrisy—and sin. Hypocrisy
is spiritual DEATH APPEARING to be Life. But Jesus’ leaven IS,
Righteousness and IS, LIFE— “life more abundantly!” Jesus’ leaven makes the
leaven-less dough of our own old lives, LIVE and swell and rise and overflow
our plate and cup of joy and enjoyment in the Lord in the heat and heart of
affliction, trial and temptation.
Reg:
Jesus died at the end of
the 9th Hour “Wednesday” which if the start of the eve of the 15th
GE:
It means that you reckon the last three hours of daylight are both the end
of the current day and the start of the oncoming day. Reg, that is, and
also, is not the meaning of the old English words “eve” or “even” or even “evening”,
unfortunately, because they have caused infinite confusion.
Reg:
I base all my findings on the first passover, the last one has to come up to it
Mat 27:57 Mark 15:42, Luke 23:54, John 19:31 in reliable bibles are after
sunset when Joseph went to Pilot the end of the 9th hour that puts Jesus death
in line with Ex:6:18
The passover and the feast of unleavened bread were all in the same 24hour
period
GE:
This is indeed where all your ‘findings’ are going wrong. In all
reliable Bibles Joseph went to Pilate ‘after sunset’—CORRECT!
But sunset isn't <the end of the 9th
hour>! Jesus said a “day has twelve hours” so that sunset is at the end
of the twelfth hour and begins the first hour of the night and its “evening” as
well as the new 24-hour day. Joseph went to Pilate after the end of the
12th hour; that puts Jesus’ death in line with Exodus 12:6 and Leviticus 23:5—and,
with Exodus 16:18 where the quails fell mid-afternoon three hours before sunset,
and were eaten afterwards until who knows which hours of the following night. The
sacrifice of the passover lamb was “on the fourteenth day” and the feast of
unleavened bread was after the 12 hour period preceding—in Exodus preceding on,
the fourteenth
Reg:
Luke 24 Luke 24:1,2 Mar
28:5-10 Mark 16:2 are after daylight and are the last of the 4 to see Jesus
Mark 16:9-14 are the first 3 Mark 16:9 Mary John 20:17 before Jesus went to the
Father Rev5
GE:
Rev5 is irrelevant.
Reg:
Luke 24 Luke 24:1,2 Mar 28:5-10 Mark 16:2 are after daylight and are the
last of the 4 to see Jesus Mark 16:9-14 are the first 3 Mark 16:9 Mary John
20:17 before Jesus went to the Father Rev5
2 two on the road to Emmaus after His return from the
Father
3 11 in the upper room including the 2 on the road from Emmaus John 20:19 4 the
women at daylight Mat 28:5-10 They held Him something He would not let Mary do
because He had not then been to see the Father in Heaven John 20:17
GE:
Again, why say it? Jesus needed not to go to the
Father; his Father raised Him from the dead. Christ was “raised up from the
dead by the GLORY OF THE FATHER” Romans 6:4— right there in his grave “In
the fullness of the Sabbath’s daylight mid-inclining towards the First Day of
the week.” Right where the Shekinah the Presence of God / overshadowed the
body and flesh of the Son in death that it should “not see corruption”!
But Reg denies it! Why? That Jesus had
to go to heaven to receive the Father’s approval is SDA blasphemy and Mrs
E.G. White’s SUPREME FALSE PROPHECY. If the Father had not approved Jesus’
sacrifice He would not have raised Him from the dead in the first place—what
blasphemous thought—God forbid!
Reg:
It was still Sabbath towards evening not yet reached its destination sun had
not set Mark 16:1 and Luke 23:55 and first half of verse 56 are
Friday Jesus had been in the tomb 24hr then they bought the spices this is
Friday and prepared them and when the sun set they kept the Sabbath--- LK 23:56
And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath
day according to the commandment. This is the Sabbath of Mat 28:1, not Mark
16:1 Thursday is the first of 3 Sabbaths 1st 15th 2nd 7th day sabbath 3rd
21st You still haven’t given us the text He rose on Sunday
GE:
It was not <still Sabbath towards evening not yet
reached its destination sun had not set Mark 16:1>. “The Sabbath HAD
GONE THROUGH”—it was, “after the Sabbath” in Mark 16:1.
And yes, <Luke 23:55 and first half of
verse 56 are Friday>, but not <still
Sabbath>—it had not been Sabbath YET! Why? Because <it was… towards evening not yet reached its
destination sun had not set> YET! ‘epephohsken sabbaton’— “daylight
was mid-inclining that day The Preparation towards the Sabbath”: ‘sabbaton’
either Accusative or Nominative.
Mark 16:1 came 27 hours after Luke 23:55; Luke 23:54 was three hours before the
Sabbath and Mark 16:1 was after sunset after the Sabbath. Therefore Jesus’ body
had been in the tomb 24 hours from Luke 23:54 until “Sabbath” the same time “on
the Sabbath daylight mid-inclining towards the First Day of the week then there
was a great earthquake” Matthew 28:1.
The women “bought spices after the Sabbath”.
That was “On the First Day of the week”(Mark 16:2).
The THREE women in Mark 16:1 “bought spices …” and of course would have
‘prepared them’, “… so that…” in Luke 24:1-2, “…when they would go
they might anoint Him but they found not the body”. “So very early…”
in Mark 16:2, “…before sunrise on the First Day of the week they came ON
PURPOSE TO [‘erchontai EPI’] the tomb and AGAIN inspected the stone, and
said among themselves, It is unbelievable for us WHO MOVED THE STONE, it is so
BIG?!” Mark 16:2
Therefore Reg, for you to patch together two texts which don’t deal with the
same things or with the same time or with the same day, is astonishingly
dishonest and stupid. Like here again, <Mark
16:1 … then they bought the spices this is Friday and prepared them and when
the sun set they kept the Sabbath--- LK 23:56.> UNBELIEVABLE!
But you go on unabashed, you hypocrite, as if Mark 16:1 and Luke 23:54-56 are
the same, <And they returned, and
prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the
commandment>!
Yes, “This…> Luke 23:56b, “…they
began to rest the Sabbath Day according to the Commandment”, <…is the Sabbath of Mat 28:1>. Luke
23:56b is the Sabbath HAVING STARTED.
But <This…> Mark 16:1, is NOT “…the
Sabbath Day according to the Commandment”! It is “…the Sabbath Day
according to the Commandment”, “…having GONE THROUGH / having PASSED / having
been OVER / having been PAST and…”, <this
is…>, “…on the First Day of the week” in Mark 16:2!
.
Anon:
I completely and safely
reject the Greek, why? Because I have the word of God in my own language. Prove
me wrong!
The division of chapters does not indicate a beginning or end of a subject or
thought. The Jews especially those priest that asked for a watch would not set
the watch on the sabbath day, they would wait for it to be ended. Hence “in the
end of the Sabbath” fits perfectly in mt 27 and causes confusion in 28:1 having
the Mary's visit the grave at a time when Mark has them at the market getting
spices and ointments. Again one more time you have conflicting times on the
same events
GE:
The man who has <the Word of God
in (his) own language> but rejects it <in (his) own language> …‘PROVEN WRONG’ <IN (HIS) OWN LANGUAGE> by himself in his own language!
Rubies:
I could chronologically
tabulate and cross-reference all the mentions of Mary Magdalene which prove how
she first arrived at the tomb on SUNDAY MORNING at DAWN, to find to her
astonishment, that Jesus was no longer in it. Etc etc
GE:
Well, you already have more trouble than you can handle in only this last
example of your abilities. To start with, <all the mentions of Mary Magdalene>—Give me just one! There is
not one!
Next: <all the mentions of Mary
Magdalene which prove how she first arrived at the tomb on SUNDAY MORNING at
DAWN, to find to her astonishment, that Jesus was no longer in it>— Give
me just one! There is not one! The ONLY mention of “they found not the body”,
is that in Luke 24:1-2, where SEVERAL women, mentioned in verse 10, discovered <that Jesus was no longer in (the tomb)>.
And they did not make their discovery <on
SUNDAY MORNING at DAWN>, but “deepest morning of night”–‘orthrou
batheohs’ just after midnight on the First Day of the week.
Next and most important: <all the
mentions of Mary Magdalene which prove how she first arrived at the tomb>—
Give me just one! There is not one! On the contrary, John tells that Mary “had
had stood after next to the grave” which implies that she stayed behind
after a previous visit at the tomb of more women than just herself. So the
story that Mary had arrived at the tomb all by herself before anyone else, is an
old wives’ tale.
Reg:
we all have to come to the truth to the formation of a
24hr day as used in the bible Gods version the truth rests on it
To understand the events times and what part of the day is being presented I
will begin in---GEN 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he
called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
Here it says the evening and the morning in the first day that is 24 hours and
we all have watches or clocks that prove that is how long the world takes to
complete a full revelation
Now befors God split the darkness to give us light there was total darkness so
we have to start the day at darkness when the only thing visible from earth
were the stars So 24hrs starts when the stars became visible and we have a
test--JOB 3:9 Let the stars of the twilight thereof be dark; let it look for
light, but have none; neither let it see the dawning of the day:-
Day begins at sunrise and continues for 12hr and comes back to starting point Now the different sections of night and day are
governed by the sun and both night and day divided into 4 watches of 3 hour
periods periods start when stars become
visible EVENING
1st watch 6 to 12 pm in our time
2nd watch 9 pm to midnight
3rd watch Midnight to midmorning 3am
4th watch midmorning to daylight 6am
----------DAY----------
1st watch 6am to 9am
2nd watch 9am to noon or midday
3rd watch noon to 3pm
4th 3 pm to 6pm EVENING sun disappears over the horizon 14th day at even 24hrs
finished even had come; afternoon is only once mentioned in the Bible and in
John 19:8 so Quails fell between the 2 evenings--- EX 16:8 And Moses said, This
shall be, when the LORD shall give you in the evening flesh to eat, and in the
morning bread to the full; for that the LORD heareth your murmurings which ye
murmur against him: and what are we? your murmurings are not against us, but
against the LORD.---twilight
Twilight would be the leven was put out of the house they could have carried
out in there heads they were making beer and had it in skins
These are the rest of Gen 1 which state the evening being beginning of each day
Gen 1:8,13,19,23,31,and Jesus said in---JN 11:9 Jesus answered, Are there not
twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because
he seeth the light of this world.
GE:
Fine, but for a few typos 'n stuff; but in principle,
fine. Summarised: Bible days end and start sunset.
Is that correct, Reg? Now if it is correct, Reg old chap, ABIDE BY YOUR OWN
RULES!
Key TURNING-POINT for days ending as well as days
beginning --- here is Reg of TopixSDA's definition:
<6pm EVENING sun disappears over the
horizon> ---
--- with the stress on disappears,
viz., 6 pm EVENING sun
has SET over the horizon. 100%! Love you!GE:
Let me tell you again; it seems no one comprehends!
NEVER HAS LUKE 24:21 BEEN READ IN WHOLE CONTEXT! The concrete SCRIPTURAL TRUTH
I want you to see obviates itself from the following extracts from Luke 24
“On the First Day of the week …
… the day far spent toward evening …
… two of them told Jesus …
… besides today (having been) the third day since they had delivered Him to be
crucified …
… certain women who deep(est) morning were at the tomb, astonished us and told
us they had seen angels who told them that He was alive.”
“Today the third day since they crucified Him” …
Which day was it?
… it was the day AFTER …
… “the third day Christ rose from the dead”.
… “today the third day since they crucified Him certain women who deep(est)
morning were at the tomb, astonished us and told us they had seen angels who
told them that he was alive …
… two of them told Jesus …
… on the First Day of the week …
… the day far spent toward evening.”
Jesus had already resurrected; Jesus had not yet appeared.
Therefore
... “RISEN, He early on the First Day APPEARED to Mary Magdalene first.”
Luke 24 and Mark 16:9
Check their truth against John 19:1 and 11-17.
My aim was to let the Scripture tell the truth, only the truth and the whole
truth ITSELF.
Without any explanation Luke 24 unequivocally and unambiguously declares:
“On the First Day of the week -- the third day since they crucified Him, day
far spent toward evening -- two of them told Jesus, Today certain women who
deep(est) morning were at the tomb, astonished us and told us they had seen
angels who told them that he was alive …”
He “was RISEN”!
He did not then, rise!
He then “WAS, risen”!
He THEN: “deepest morning”, “WAS, RISEN”!
But only when a “gardener” would come to his “garden” -- “early on the First
Day of the week --, APPEARED He first to Mary Magdalene AS THE RISEN ONE”--– “THIS
Jesus whom God raised from the dead CHRIST AND LORD” --- “ON THE SABBATH BEFORE”—
“the Sabbath before the First Day of the week” Matthew 28:1-4.
... or does no one care?! God help us
Reg:
You agreed John 12:1 is 6 days before the passover
GE:
That’s what John 12:1 says, isn’t it?
Not exactly. John 12:1 says exactly that it was “six days before DAYS”–
Plural – of passover, viz., it was six days before the FEAST– “days”,
i.e., “six days before”, “the first day (of) seven days ULB you shall
eat”. In other words, John 12:1 says it was six days before Abib 15—six
days before the first day ULB was eaten. On that I <agreed>, yes.
I never <agreed> that <John 12:1 is 6 days before the passover>—,
passover “the first day they KILLED
the passover”— passover “on the
fourteenth day of the month”.
Six days before the fourteenth would mean Jesus
travelled on
a Thursday to
Also … Referred “before passover” to six days before the fourteenth, not one of
the other indicators as to the days of the passion week would fall into place. So
it is impossible I <agreed to John
12:1 is Friday>, or, to <that
makes Wednesday preparation day>. I also … never <except(ed) [Sic.] the 10th of Abid [Sic.] was
Sabbath”—never!
The Last of All Passovers—
A condensed chronology as abbreviated as precise…
“Because that day was great-day-sabbath-of(-passover )
and since it was The Preparation”, “the Preparation which is the Fore-Sabbath
and already evening” John 19:31 Mark 15:42, “six days before the Days” of the passover Feast beginning on Abib
15, was on the Sabbath the 9th day
of the First Month. That’s what I said.
Sunday was “the next day” John 12:12—the 10th of the month when the Lamb was separated—, five days before the first
day of the feast “Days”.
“And the next day” Mark 11:12, was Monday the 11th day of the month four
days before the Feast Days, on which Jesus cursed the fig tree.
Jesus on Tuesday
on the 12th day of the month three
days
“before the Feast” (John 13:1), told his disciples
that He “after two days” would be “betrayed”
and “crucified” Matthew 26:2. He
would be “betrayed” and “crucified”, “on the fourteenth day of the month”, “when
they killed the passover”— on Abib 14.
The Jews on Wednesday Abib 13 “two days after was the Feast” Abib 15 on Friday, connived to
kill Jesus, but “not on the Feast” Mark 14:1,2. Two days before Abib 15 the
first of the seven Feast Days of ULB was Wednesday the 13th day of the month.
Next day on Thursday Abib 14 “on the
first day (of the passover) they removed leaven when always they had to kill the passover”, the Jews “not on the Feast” Abib 15 but on the
day “before the Feast” John 13:1 on Abib 14, crucified Jesus and He died, “Our
Passover” and “Lamb of God”. “It was The Preparation-of-the-PASSOVER” John
19:14 “the Preparation Day of the Passover” for the Feast DAYS of the Passover “from
the fifteenth until the one and twentieth day of the First Month” of ULB eaten
Exodus 12:18b.
On the morning of the day of the Crucifixion, Abib 14, “before the Feast”—Abib 15, the Jews because they did not want to defile
themselves did not want to enter Pilate’s house so that they still could eat
their passover meal “the first night” following of ULB Feast—John 19:39.
That first Festive Night “to be solemnly observed “had begun, evening already having come, since it was
The Preparation which is the Fore-Sabbath” the Sixth Day of the
week—‘Thursday night’ before ‘Friday’ morning and day, in Mark 15:42, Matthew
27:57 John 19:31,38 Luke 23:50 “when there arrived this man called Joseph”. Here, “had begun … that day great day of sabbath” of the
passover, “the first night” of ULB THWARTED BY THE DEATH OF CHRIST—NO MORE
seders for
Michael:
Albert Barnes Well
known Scholar of the Bible on Matthew
28:1… “In the end of the sabbath - The word “end” here
means the same as “after” the Sabbath - that is, after the Sabbath was fully
completed or finished, and may be expressed in this manner: “In the night
following the Sabbath, for the Sabbath closed at sunset, as it began to dawn,”
etc.
As it began to dawn toward the first day of the week - The word “dawn” is not
of necessity in the original. The word there properly means as the first day
“approached” or drew on, without specifying the precise time. Mark says
Mar_16:1-2 that it was after “the sabbath was past, and very early in the
morning, at the rising of the sun”- that is, not that the sun “was risen”, but
that it was about to rise, or at the early break of day. Luke says Luk_24:1
that it was “very early in the morning;” in the Greek text, “deep twilight”, or
when there was scarcely any light. John Joh_20:1 says it was “very early, while
it was yet dark”- that is, it was not yet full daylight, or the sun had not yet
risen. The time when they came, therefore, was at the break of day, when the
sun was about to rise, but while it was yet so dark as to render objects
obscure, or not distinctly visible. The first day of the week - The day which
is observed by Christians as the Sabbath. The Jews observed the seventh day of
the week, or our Saturday. During that day our Saviour was in the grave. As he
rose on the morning of the first day, that day has always been observed in
commemoration of so glorious an event.”
GE:
Barnes has been refuted by
his fellow Sunday Resurrection believers like A.T. Robertson. In fact, Barnes
is a dishonest looser lying to save face for his bad scholarship. Nevertheless
he does not say what the WCs say he does!
They—like you, Michael—, misinterpret Barnes!
http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/seventh-day-adventist/TCMT0QQAME27RFJT4/p184
Michael:
Give me source of back up
for conclusions, just one Scholar of the Bible that supports your theory
that Jesus rose on the Sabbath or was Crucified on Wednesday...
here is another scholar Mathew Henry on Mat_28:1.
“Observe, 1. When they came; in the END of the
SABBATH,
as it began to dawn toward the first day of the
week, This fixes
the time of Christ's resurrection. (1.) He arose the
third day after his death; that was the time which he had often prefixed, and
he kept within it. He was buried in the evening of the SIXTH DAY of the
week, and arose in the morning of the FIRST Day of the following week, He arose
the THIRD Day,”
GE:
What is easier to assert? Matthew Henry
or not, he cannot change the Greek. More important, he cannot
change Jesus’ fulfilling of all the Law and Prophets and Psalms. He cannot
change the fact Jesus is Our Passover Lamb of God. The Greek only tells
what God foretold and let happen in Christ. Therefore the Greek is irrefutable
and unchangeable historic FACT and prophetic Truth revealed in itself all about
the RESURRECTED from the dead and grave Son of God Jesus Christ. Matthew
Henry BELIES every word he wrote just before where he lies, saying, <and arose in the morning of the FIRST DAY of
the following week>. That is nowhere written in Barnes’ quoted
Scriptures or OWN statements, <When
they came; in the END of the SABBATH, as it began to dawn toward the
first day of the week, This fixes the time of Christ's resurrection. (1.)
He arose the third day after his death; that was the time which he had often
prefixed, and he kept within it. He was buried in the evening of the
SIXTH DAY of the week> To hell with mighty scholars and scholarship that
unknowingly and knowingly serve and worship esteem and gain like nouveau riche
beggars.
Alex:
Interesting - pretty much the conclusion I arrived at.
Wednesday 14 Nisan 30 AD. I am satisfied.
GE:
I'll show you WHO and WHAT it is to BOAST on this
forum:
Here it is, post 3869 above …
Alex:
It wasnt a BOAST and I don't put people down. Have
grace towards others GE.
.
GE:
Alright then, Alex. If you feel I owe you
an apology. Scripture is everybody's judge. That I am wrong and
behave wrong is more likely than not and I won't deny. I apologise because I
would not boast that I would not or do not put people down, or don't try to put
people down.
Rubies:
I have arrived at the conclusion that you have
absolutely no
discernment, Alex. Sorry about that, Alex. You
certainly have the smarts to come to better conclusions, but you do keep
running after all the lunatics and heretics under the sun, just because they
happen to believe in a Wednesday Cross. Yet THEY are ALL
SABBATARIANS!! And THEY think YOU are not saved because you are a
Sunday-go-to-meetin' commandment breaking sinner!
GE:
IGNORANCE PREVENTS YOU FROM ENTERING INTO SCRIPTURE. NO!
None of you nor the bunch of you are worth two words intelligibly
exchanged. You do not have to do with me, GE. You do not have to do with
God or with Christ. CHRIST said, HE judges no one -- THE SCRIPTURES DO! And the
Scriptures judged you all with all your satanic confusion. WC more than
Sunday-resurrection of Jesus Christ is BY FAR the biggest SCAM AND
FRAUD the world and history has ever witnessed. It originated from Seventh-day
Adventism and bears the wicked fruit of Seventh-day Adventism THOUSAND-FOLD.
Christ said the Scriptures ALREADY have judged you !
Here is, ‘The Evolution of the Species
Wednesdanus Crossitus Crossitus’: Experiment Control: The Darwinian scientific
observation of 8 years old Saartjie,
<‘How the Bird Got its Brain’…
Find out how the bird got its Clever brain!!!
Long long ago before birds had brains they couldn’t think. They had wings, a beak,
claws and feathers. One little bird lived on the ground. He was very dumb. He
had no friends because he was very dumb. His name was Goggle!
Then one day Goggle went to find something to eat in the jungle. He found worms
to eat. He ate the worms but he didn’t chew them. Finally he ate so many worms
that the worms filled up in his head and made a brain shape. Because he ate
those clever worms he had a brain. From that day on birds were born with
brains.>
The WCs found SDA worms to eat; first they ate worms until their hearts
overflowed with worms and worms forced up worms until their skull cavity was
filled with SDA worms— not “Clever worms”, but STUPID worms! From that day
on SDAs and WCs contest whose brain is most vermicular and stupid.
Alex:
GE - what a rant! Calm yourself. Did you forget that:
“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the
gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.”
Ephesians 2:8,9
GE:
Alex, your assumption <at the Lords Passover on 14 Nisan no meat was stated to have been used
yet unleavened bread was> is wrong. Read Exodus 12:8.
Alex:
[That] no meat was eaten
on 14 Nisan is not incorrect as Exodus 12:8 clearly states it was eaten that
night meaning 15 Nisan 1st day of weekly feasts of unleavened bread. I am
unsure why this needs going over again or why a verse was supplied with the aim
of correction of a particular point when it in fact supports the authors
original position - that no meat was eaten on 14 Nisan.
GE:
Exodus 12:8 clearly does
not state meat - “flesh” was eaten
that night on 15 Nisan or meaning on 15 Nisan; it states, and means, “on the
fourteenth day”. Because days were sunrise days in
Alex:
GE, by the time after the Exodus, meaning to include
the tabernacle, the First and Second Temple periods including the time of
Christ do you agree that no meat was consumed on the evening just past 6 PM on
14 Nisan being the Lord's Passover and also the timing of the Last Supper?
GE:
<… on the evening just past 6 PM on 14 Nisan being> the evening
after sunset after 13 Nisan, my answer is, Yes!
http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/seventh-day-adventist/TCMT0QQAME27RFJT4/p185
Alex:
Your claim that by John 19 verse 42 that Joseph didn't
have permission nor the body is incorrect as the preceding verses in verse 38
and 40 clearly state Joseph had permission from Pilate and that both men had
taken the body down in readiness for burial that same day 14 Nisan.
GE:
I’m afraid you perception of my supposed claim … that <Joseph didn't have permission nor the body>,
is incorrect. Joseph asked for the body and Pilate had it delivered to him; and
“Nicodemus also (later) that first night” of ULB, came to help Joseph and the
two of them prepared the body further to get it ready to be finally interred
next day the same day AND FINISHED TO DO SO … “by the time of the Jews’
preparations to begin … mid-afternoon on the Preparation towards the
approaching Sabbath”. John 19:42 Luke 23:54.
Alex:
No! John 19:40 does not
advocate burials to take place on high day Sabbaths and would not do so as
it was against Jewish custom to perform burials on a sabbath or a day holy
convocation. You know this so I am unsure why you made this statement.
GE:
O, I know you think so. But I know you are wrong on this and that the
fifteenth day of the First Month the “great day” and “sabbath” of the passover
was EXACTLY DESIGNED for to “burn with fire that which remained” of the
passover sacrifice and that which in “that night solemnly to be observed” had
to be EATEN as in a way “TO THE ETHICAL LAW” OF THE PASSOVER “TO BURY”. At the
first passover “the flesh” was eaten “with UB”, “on the fourteenth”.
Alex:
Bollocks. Assuming the Passover laws can be applied to
Jewish customs of burial - if nothing remained then there was nothing to bury!
Regardless NO burials are permitted on the annual high sabbaths, in this case
Nisan 15 nor weekly sabbaths. NO burial allowed on sabbaths or holy days of
convocation. Source [Cut]…
GE:
…[Cut] Instead bring the Scriptures <Source>! It’s the only Source God, might be interested in.
.
Alex:
Furthermore since Christ
was hung on the cross the day before on the Day of Preparation Nisan 14 we find…
GE:
We find Christ was hanged on the cross on “the
Preparation of the Passover”—Nisan 14, John 19:14; not on “The Preparation which is the Fore-Sabbath” Mark
15:42, “since it was The Preparation on the sabbath THAT DAY great /
high-day-of-sabbath” of the passover, Nisan 15, John 19:31, and the bodies
still hanging on the crosses, that the Jews asked Pilate to get the bodies and
crosses down and removed out of sight.
Alex:
We find furthermore since
Christ was hung on the cross the day before on the Day of Preparation Nisan 14
we find that Torah Law was also kept in the eyes of the Jews - “If a man has
committed a sin worthy of death, and he is put to death, and you hang him on a
tree, his corpse shall not hang all night on the tree, but you shall surely
bury him ON THE SAME DAY, for he who is hanged is the curse of God, so that you
do not defile your land which the Lord your God gives you as an inheritance. (Deuteronomy
21:22-23; cf. Joshua 8:29, 10:26-27).” Christ was promptly buried by sun down
late Nisan 14.
GE:
If that were so Christ was buried directly contrary
the very verse you quoted!
Alex:
Please direct me to where the meat of the Passover
Lamb as sacrificed on 14 Nisan was eaten with the unleavened bread on 14 Nisan
the Lord's Passover day.
.
GE:
Exodus 12:6,8,14,27,42. Remember that day occurred in Egypt before the
exodus; it was the first of three sunrise days of three days first and three days’
nights, last— “three days THICK DARKNESS” no light from the sun
distinguishable days or nights, but one night of the Passover of Yahweh.
Alex:
GE wrote, “whereas Mark 15:42 in so many words
says that The Preparation Day evening had already begin”.
No. We have already covered that. I gave you a link for a Greek Interlinear
translation which clearly shows “even had come” as “between the evenings”
meaning 3 PM. Did you not read that? For I don’t recall any specific
comment re Greek translation.
GE:
You don’t need give me <links>,
Alex. Just Scripture is better than anything else. <Greek Interlinear translation which clearly shows “even had come” as “between
the evenings” meaning 3 PM> is no <translation>. It is illegitimate, dishonest, unchristian,
Sunday-indoctrination. Did you read the thing’s DATE, Alex?! “between the
evenings” in the Hebrew text <meaning
3 PM> - ‘behn ha arba yim’, has nothing to do with the Greek in Mark 15:42,
‘opsias genomenehs’- “evening had come” after, after 6 PM.
Alex:
Lets recap John 19:31 “The
Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not
remain upon the cross on the sabbath day,(for that sabbath day was an high
day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be
taken away.” How can a Day of Preparation for the Sabbath and the High Day
Sabbath be on the same Jewish day? Really? Please do explain.
GE:
Why not? There is nothing <to explain> except, Why can the Day
of Preparation for the Sabbath and the High Day Sabbath of the passover NOT be
on the same day of the week?
Alex:
Also no it is not written
in John 19:31 as you claimed it was written “the day of Preparation being the
high day Sabbath”. What translation are you using?
GE:
‘epei paraskeueh ehn’ … ‘eimi’ hence ‘ehn’=“being” / “because was” = ‘EPEI
ehn’=“because was” / “because became” / “being” etc.
– “because having been / because having become / because it was the Preparation…”–
‘… ehn gar megaleh heh hehmera ekeinou tou sabbatou’ –
“… being /
because was / because having become / because that day was high day sabbath”
That is what the Greek says and, means. Is it Alex or
is it
Rubies who claims,
<It was called a high sabbath
because it fell during the feast. NOT because it was the feast sabbath>…
nonsense! Just the other way round; A ‘sabbath’ was called a ‘high sabbath’ because
it was the ‘feast sabbath’ not because it was the Seventh Day Sabbath which
fell during the feast’s “season”. Any ‘high sabbath’— “great day sabbath”,
‘first day of month sabbath’, ‘yearly sabbath’—any ceremonial,
‘sabbath’—exactly because of the ceremonies that belonged to it and which made the
difference between ceremonial sabbaths and the weekly Sabbaths was, a ‘ceremonial
sabbath’. People called them ‘ceremonial sabbaths’ because of the ceremonies
that belonged to, on, and with them. A ceremonial sabbath on which no work was
allowed never existed. And no Bible says there are NO ceremonial Sabbaths.
That’s Rubies’ or Alex’s
(com si com sa) spinning.
On the weekly Sabbath no ordinary work was permitted.
On feast sabbaths some work was not only permitted; specific work was
prescribed. Thus the Jews were obliged to “prepare for the passover” if it was for
the weekly sabbath or not. To “prepare for passover”, meant to slaughter the
lamb the day before; and to ‘prepare the passover’ meant to prepare it to be
eaten and or buried “according to the ethics of the passover” : ON passover “ON
the sabbath that day of great day sabbath” of passover. John 19:31. To “prepare
for passover” feast, meant to prepare for “to bury”, as well as to bury “that
which remained” of the passover. That which remained of the Passover of Yahweh
Sacrifice was Jesus’ body. For Joseph, Nicodemus and the two Marys it was
mandatory to “prepare” whatever was to be prepared and “according to the ethics
of the Jews to bury” on the Passover-Bone-Day, was mandatory to be buried. You
are confused, Alex, because of your belief in a convoluted theory that has no
basis in the Scriptures, viz., your WC theory as confused and convoluted as
Rubies’ fractious Friday crucifixion fabrication.
Anon:
There was only one Sabbath
were no work is allowed; and the ceremonial sabbath servile work is allowed.
GE:
Mio, HA and Ant said the same thing. Rubies said
basically the same thing. <You say 15
Nisan was a “ceremonial sabbath” when the Bible says there are NO “ceremonial
Sabbaths.” There are Holy Convocations (MIQRA QODESH), days of Solemn Rest
(SHABBATHON) & Solemn Assemblies (ATZERETH) when no work may be done. But
only the Day of Atonement is ever designated a Sabbath (SHABBATH).>
Said Guy: <3
‘Six days shall work be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest,
a holy convocation. You shall do no work on it; it is the Sabbath of the Lord
in all your dwellings. The Passover and Unleavened Bread 4 ‘These are the
feasts of the Lord, holy convocations which you shall proclaim at their
appointed times. 5 On the fourteenth day of the first month at twilight is the
Lord’s Passover. 6 And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the Feast of
Unleavened Bread to the Lord; seven days you must eat unleavened bread. 7 On
the first day you shall have a holy convocation; you shall do no customary work
on it.>
Wrote Ant: <after the death they
couldn't not come to do any work on the Body, Because Friday was unleavened
Bread in which no work was allowed and Saturday was the Sabbath in which no
work was allowed, so this is why they waited til after the Sabbath to come and
anoint the body.>
Samie holds the same view. I answered him, This is sheer shrewdness,
Samie, of yours! Your reasoning is not FROM Scripture-detail on the days of the
week of Jesus' Last Passover, TO, the days of the week; but your reasoning
STARTS FROM your presumed, YEAR --- on the basis of astrometrics --- TO,
arbitrary days and dates which have nothing to do with the Scriptures. You
decided the year; then you decided a WC; then you decided Abib 14 must <synch> with both. And for all
these, you most <basically>,
needed a <no works on sabbaths>
LAW that never, existed!
If one willed, one DOES ALSO find a full moon which fell on a THURSDAY round
about 30 years after Jesus' birth but it
BEFOREHAND won't do for you because you have
BEFOREHAND decided it must be the year 31 and you have
BEFOREHAND decided it must be a Wednesday.
Your method and philosophy of method are FALSE.
And the ONLY 'reason' which you or any WCite has EVER thought you had, is the
FALSE notion <NO WORK may be done on a
'ceremonial sabbath’.>
AFTER ALL WCites could never have thought of ANY thing else why Jesus could not
be BURIED ON THE PASSOVER-SABBATH which fell on the Sixth Day of the
week.
THIS is the whole premeditated FRAUD of the Wednesday Crucifixion SCAM. NOTHING
else; NOTHING more; NOTHING better and NOTHING less fraudulent. Truth is, Jesus
was BURIED on “The Preparation WHICH IS : THE FORE-SABBATH”
---'FRIDAY'! This Friday-BURIAL day of Jesus is the DEATH KNELL to both
the WC and FC heresies.
The first passover lasted “THREE DAYS THICK DARKNESS”, resulting on Rest Day OF
THE LORD GOD : “the third day” and in “seven - literal - SABBATHS” equalling “seven
- literal- WEEKS” following, up to, and on, Pentecost.
The last passover --- the Passover of Yahweh --- exactly the same.
But with your days of the week identified, you must have seven THURSDAYS up to
and on Pentecost. As absurd as ‘Pente-Thursday’, as absurd is ‘Wednesday
Crucifixion’.
But the passover-story in Exodus is the best. It shows
how the Israelites had to work with all their might to go out of
The New Testament shows which things were “ethical” and “customary” in the time
of Christ —in other words—shows what things then, were LEGAL and mandatory for
the Jews ON the “great day sabbath (of the passover)”. The Gospels themselves
specifically mention that whatever was needed for a burial, was obligatory to
be sold to the undertaker of a burial on the passover sabbath, like the “clean
linen” which Joseph went to buy in the heart of night. The Gospels tell how
Joseph and Nicodemus with great care and trouble obtained and prepared Jesus’
body for the grave IN “THAT FIRST NIGHT” of the passover-season in which
unleavened bread had to be eaten for “the first” of seven nights. Nothing
happened that OUGHT not to have happened. Behind everything which was done was
God in his Eternal Purpose in Jesus Christ. “How the Christ ought to have
suffered (‘pascha’), “according to the Law and Moses”, “the Whole-Day-Bone-Day”
of his Burial on the Feast and “great day sabbath” of the Passover of Yahweh”.
“Ye shall observe THIS THING for an ordinance to thee”—not <jewish-funeral-guide.com/tra dition>!
Dave:
Hi Reg I'm not sure why
you think Alex said the 7th day weekly Sabbath was the 15th - in fact his
timeline as was made available in post 2065 clearly has 14th as Wed till 6PM,
15th as Thurs etc making what you said as the Sabbath before the Passover as 10
as was listed in timeline as Shabbat Hagadol.
You two appear to be in agreement as to the days but differ that Jesus was
buried after the evening had pass i.e. on 15th which was the High Sabbath. This
would be contrary to Jewish customs. I too prefer the Greek text of “between
the evenings” not the modern translations of “evening had come” to be mid
afternoon around 3PM when second sacrifice was killed.
GE:
Yes Dave, all three of you agree on a WC. What you mean with <Jewish customs> and what the Law says
it had to be, are worlds apart. According to the Torah the Law the sacrifice
had to be eaten, quote, <after the
evening had pass i.e. on 15th which was the High Sabbath Leviticus 23:6.>
Now to eat the sacrifice is to BURY it in the eater’s body so that it can be
assimilated with the eater’s mortality and corruptibility. And to “burn with
fire that which remained” of the sacrifice afterwards, was to show the return
to the dust of the earth as when a dead body is buried—‘interred’. Which two
same things—the eating of the body and the burying / burning of it—was minutely
done <after the evening had pass i.e.
on 15th which was the High Sabbath> and “the next day” after the morning
<i.e. on 15th which was the High
Sabbath> respectively.
So to say it <would be contrary to
Jewish customs … that Jesus was buried after the evening had pass [Sic.] i.e. on 15th which was the High Sabbath>,
is to contradict yourself and <Jewish
customs> according to the Scriptures!
That is why you find it possible to, quote, <prefer the Greek text of “between the evenings” not the modern
translations of “evening had come” to be mid afternoon around 3PM when second
sacrifice was killed> --- because THERE IS NO <Greek text of “between the evenings”>!
But say your preference is correct and <Jesus
was buried, “mid afternoon around 3PM when second sacrifice was killed>,
on the same day that He died, then He had to have been BURIED the same moment
as He DIED that day, <“between the
evenings” …mid afternoon around 3PM when second sacrifice was killed>. That
is what comes of substituting the Greek text in Mark 15:42 and John 19:31, <after the evening had pass [Sic.] i.e. on 15th which was the High Sabbath>,
with your own <preferred, “Greek text of “between the evenings”…mid
afternoon around 3PM>!
And that is only what Alex has been arguing with his learned
<jewish-funeral-guide.com/trad
ition.>
Reg:
Jesus had to fulfil the
FIRST PASSOVER the change that came in Passover was no accident God had been
behind it so that Christ could die on time after the sun had disappeared over
the horizon on the first day of unleavened bread Mark 14:12
GE:
Yes, this is how EVERY WC&B and EVERY FC&B and EVERY TC&B rape
and abuse the Word of God in Mark 14:12 and 15:42 and Matthew 26:17 and 27:57
and Luke 22:7 and 23:50. It is not the senile completely deranged Reg only, but
everyone of them all over the world.
Note,
WC&B stands for Wednesday Crucified AND Buried lunatic(s), and
FC&B stands for Friday Crucified AND Buried lunatic(s), and
TC&B stands for Thursday Crucified AND Buried lunatic(s).
Note,
That means that all three classes of these jerks whether they deny or admit it
or not stand for Sunday Resurrection.
Note,
That means the whole lot of them are the castigating maimers of God’s Written
Word.
Note,
… who shall give reckoning in the day of judgment, very soon.
Reg:
John 19:31 Newberry = the
Jews because it “was” preparation is imperfect tense continuous in the past “was
doing” the sun had set and Sabbath began Christ had the ability to give up His
life and He waited until the sun had disappeared over the horizon then He
died
GE:
No! This is above Newberry. This is “above what is
written”
Rubies:
Gerhard wrote : “All
translations, Alex, are only the work of humans like you and me. I trust no one
or all together of them or us. I believe the TEXT. The Text says “six days
before the DAYS of passover” the meaning of which expression is irrefutably the
first day of the Passover’s “seven days Unleavened Bread”, FEAST—NOT of the “Passover”
per se “the first day they KILLED the passover”.
You claim that you “only trust the text.” WHICH “text”, I wonder? You insist
that John 12:1 says “6 days before Passover's DAYS,” and use this subterfuge to
date your chronology. Please divulge the source of all these anomalous
interpretations you keep giving.
GE:
I do not give <anomalous
interpretations>; consistency of the
Text is what I present. Substantiate your false
anomalous charges yourself!
Rubies:
The Greek according to Interlinear Scripture Analyzer
says, John 12:1 “Iesous pro hex hemeron tou PASCHA elthen eis bethanian.” No “Passover's
DAYS” in sight.
I believe you rely heavily on a faulty memory and delusions of your own
infallibility when you use reams of unreferenced pseudo-scriptures. Here,
you may be confusing the singular word PASCHA for “Passover” with the Greek
plural word AZUMON, translated “day of Unleavened Bread” in Matt 26:17, Mark
14:12 & Luke 22:7. Of course this literally means “UNLEAVENEDS” and the
word “DAY” is not in the
original Greek here.
GE:
WHAAAT? <No “Passover's DAYS” in sight>?!
YOU are saying what I supposedly said—which I did NOT
say! That is what is called FRAUD!
In any case, it is ‘a-dzumos’ from ‘a’–”without” and
‘dzumeh’–”leaven”. It is not <AZUMON,
plural> in Mark 14:12 Matt 26:17,
Mark 14:12 Luke 22:7, where ‘adzumos’ strictly speaking functions Adjectively,
“the first day without leaven(ed bread)” or paraphrased, “the first day leaven
was removed”.
And I wrote, “six days before the DAYS of passover”— “DAYS” stressed! You
should know the Greek word for ‘days’-plural
is not <AZUMON> or ‘adzumos’,
but ‘hehmerohn’– Genitive Plural of ‘hehmera’ the Greek word for ‘day’
Singular.
That now—<the Greek plural word>,
‘hehmerohn’, IS, <here> where
YOU, certainly confuses the Greek word ‘adzumos’ Singular, for the first “DAY”
of seven for eating ULB which <word “DAY”>,
you—in your confusion and ignorance—have not even noticed in fact IS, <in the original Greek here> in <(t)he Greek according to Interlinear Scripture
Analyzer … John 12:1.>
Must we really buy your faked Rubies, dear Rubies?
Rubies:
In that climate, speed was
of the essence in burial.
GE:
<That climate> was
overruled by Roman law and Divine intervention. “Because it was not possible
…(for) the Holy One of Thee to see corruption … his soul was not left in hell [while
living, He suffered death] neither saw his flesh corruption [in dying the death
of death or in death]”.
Reg:
Hello Gerard and all you
others that believe evening begins at 3pm there are 4 time periods in the
Passover that have to be accounted foe they are
1) John 12:1--- 6 days
2) 2) Ex 12:3----6 days
3) 3) Mat 12:40 ----3 days
4) Mark 14:1,1---- 2 days
5) These texts cover every day from John 12:1 to Mat 28:1 more then all your post
you have posted from page 1 with your renderings from the same time period text
only you only have 9 days to account for …… Friday He arrived at
GE:
Ag ja … Yes, <Friday He arrived at
Reg:
Now read the next post Tuesday making Thursday Passover
…… Sabbath is 10th 14th day at even is the 15th.14 .13. 12 .11 10. The day
after preparation = Passover is 15th Thursday. Mark 14:1,2 is Tuesday making
Thursday also Passover
3) MT 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly;
so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the
earth.—begins eve of 15th at the death of the lamb Jesus died after sunset
Wednesday Jesus
died after sunset Wednesday
GE:
Reg, <Mark 14:1,2 was Thursday…>
and now, <Mark 14:1,2 is Tuesday>!
You are wasting everybody’s time and you are taking advantage of everybody's
civility. And STOP contradicting Jesus and STOP saying <Jesus died after sunset>! He died
three hours before, sunset “the ninth hour” of the “twelve hours a day has”.
http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/seventh-day-adventist/TCMT0QQAME27RFJT4/p186
Alex:
the same Jewish God
Creator of Heaven and Earth is G-d overall but may not necessarily be the god
of the Talmud.
GE:
According to WCs God the Creator of Heaven and Earth is a <Jewish>, false god. But G-d according to
WCs is the Creator of Heaven and Earth. Now what makes G-d the true God and
what makes God a false god other than a hyphen? The hyphen
makes God G-d
and therefore the true god…
Alex:
The God of the OT is not the god of the Talmud.
God the Creator of Heaven and Earth is not a false ‘god’ but is God
the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. Settling on a day of
crucifixion does not change that fact.
GE:
Amen! Alleluia! Away with all this G-d stuff! Imagine we should all
speak like that, 'G-d','L-rd','-lm-ght-',' l--m'... If ever there was hypocrisy
this is it! And it exclusively is a WC thing!---WC graffiti! Abominable! Even
more unbelievable, these WCs and 'Name'- daft, it seems, cannot take exception
or
be insulted -- so holy are they in their own
estimation!
Rubies:
SABBATON : In the Greek,
this word is not, as many suppose, actually the plural form of “Sabbath”. W.
E. Vine M.A. says in his Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, SABBATH:
1. SABBATON or SABBATA : The latter, the plural form, was transliterated from
the Aramaic word, which was mistaken for a plural; hence, the SINGULAR,
SABBATON, was formed from it..
“In the Epistles the only direct mentions are in Col 2:16, “a Sabbath day,” R.V.(which
rightly has the singular SABBATON, see paragraph 1 above), where it is listed
among things that were “a shadow of the things to come”(i.e. of the
age introduced at Pentecost), and in Heb 4:4-11, where the perpetual
SABBATISMOS is appointed for believers (see REST); inferential references are
in Rom 14:5 and Gal 4:9-11. For the first 3 centuries of the Christian era the
first day of the week was never confounded with the Sabbath; the
confusion of the Jewish and Christian institutions was due to declension from
apostolic teaching.
“NOTES:
(1) In Matt 12:1 & 11, where the PLURAL {SABBASIN} is used, the A.V.(as the
R.V.) rightly has the singular, “the Sabbath day;”
in Matt 12:5 the AV has the plural (see above).
“Where the singular is used the RV omits the word “day,” Matt 12:2; 24:20; Mark
6:2; Luke 6:1 (“on a Sabbath”); Mark 14:3; John 9:14 (“It was a Sabbath on the
day when ...”).
“As to the use or omission of the article, the omission does not always require
rendering “A” Sabbath; it is absent, e.g. in Matt 12:2.” So Mr Vine shows that
the word SABBATON is truly the singular, NOT the plural for Sabbath. The plural
word is SABBATA or SABBASIN.
GE:
Most glaring blunder is your own self-contradictory statement, <The plural word is SABBATA or SABBASIN>.
Now your quoting Vine, <W. E. Vine
M.A. says in his Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, SABBATH: 1.
SABBATON or SABBATA : The latter, the plural form, was transliterated from the
Aramaic word, which was MISTAKEN FOR A PLURAL; hence, the SINGULAR, SABBATON,
was formed from it.>
Vine says <SABBATA :… the plural
form,… was MISTAKEN FOR A PLURAL>. Vine says <SABBATA… MISTAKEN FOR A PLURAL...>, actually is a Singular. Is
the poor man mentis corpus? Rubies parrots more or less, no, <The PLURAL word is SABBATA>. Ironically
Rubies is the one correct and her authority is a Master of Arts, M.A. in
deception. Rubies is correct, ‘sabbata’ is Plural—Accusative Plural from
‘sabbatoi’ Nominative Plural from Nominative Singular ‘sabbatos’.
But both Rubies and M.A. Vine are LYING. Here you both, LIE, Rubies! <In the Epistles the only direct mentions (of
…SABBATON or SABBATA … the SINGULAR), are in
You are LYING because the Greek word ‘sabbatismos’ occurs only once in the NT
in Hebrews 4:9. ‘Sabbatismos’ comes from ‘sabbatos’ from the Hebrew word for
the Sabbath, ‘shabbath’, which the Greek suffix, ‘–ismos’ was added onto to
express the idea of “a Sabbath-ism” or “a keeping-of-the-Sabbath Day”.
You are both LYING claiming <in
SABBATISMOS is appointed for
believers>.
‘sabbatismos’ does not occur even in Colossians. And you are both LYING because
<in Heb 4:4-11> the reference
is not to the “Sabbatism”—‘sabbatismos’, but to “The Seventh Day God [from the
creation] thus concerning spoke: And God the day The Seventh Day from all his
works, rested.”
And you are both LYING because it is said in verse 8b
of THIS “The Seventh Day” that “God will not speak of another day [‘hehmera’]”
or another ‘sabbath’ or another day of SALVATION than the one in which “JESUS
gave them (the People of God) REST”—God’s eternal “REST”—the ‘katapausis’ of
GOD’S SALVATION IN AND THROUGH JESUS CHRIST. “Let us therefore labour to enter
into THAT REST”—‘eis ekeinehn tehn
katapausin’—the Rest of God in Christ. It does NOT
say, ‘Let us labour to enter the Sabbath’, OR, ‘Let us labour to enter into a
keeping of the Sabbath Day’—‘sabbatismos’. NO! But BEWARE “lest any
man fall after the same EXAMPLE OF UNBELIEF”! The “example” can be and usually
is the example of “the People of God’s”, “unbelief” in GOD (1); and “unbelief”
in the REST of God (2); and UNBELIEF in and transgression of “the Seventh Day …
Sabbath OF THE LORD GOD’S”, “REST”! (3).
God does not swop his Sabbath Day for another, ever; God is unchangeable; so is
“the day The Seventh Day Sabbath OF THE LORD GOD”. After the ten
thousandth time I have had to make observations like this one about the
sanctity and validity of the Sabbath Jesus The Son of Man is the Lord of, my
soul is crying out in bitterness and frustration because of the UNBELIEF of
people who assume they are The People of God – today’s so called Christians who
actually worship their day they chose above the Lord’s Day.
.
Rubies:
All NT mentions :
SABBATA :{Plural} Acts 17:2. “Paul reasoned on 3 Sabbaths.”
SABBASIN :{Plural} Matt 12:1, 5, 10, 11, 12 Mark 1:21; 2:23, 24; 3:2, 4 Luke
4:31; 6:2, 9; 13:10.
SABBATO :{Singular} Matt 12:2; 24:20 Luke 6:1, 6, 7; 13:14, 15; 14:1, 3 John
5:16; 7:22; 23 x 2; 19:31 Acts 13:44
SABBATOU :{Singular} Matt 12:8 Mark 2:28; 6:2; 16:1, 9 Luke 6:5; 13:14, 16;
14:5; 18:12 John 19:31 Acts 1:12
SABBATON:{Singular} Matt 12:5 Mark 2:27x2 Luke 23:54, 56
John 5:9, 10, 18; 9:14, 16 Acts 13:27, 42; 15:21; 18:4
TON SABBATON; “of the Week;” “of Sabbath” Matt 28:1 Mark 16:2 1 Cor 16:2 Col
2:16
PROSABBATON :{Singular} Mark 15:42
SABBATON = Week : Matt 28:1 Mar 16:2, 9 Luke 18:12; 24:1 John 20:1, 19 Acts
20:7 1 Cor 16:2
GE:
So? ‘Judged’ correctly. Not
‘funny’; ‘nuts’!
Just look at this, < SABBATON =
Week : Matt 28:1 Mar 16:2, 9 Luke 18:12; 24:1 John 20:1, 19 Acts 20:7 1 Cor
16:2>
Matthew 28:1 is Genitive Plural— Greek IDIOM of / for “Sabbath (Day of the
week)”. Mark 16:9 is Genitive Singular; Luke 24:1 John 20:1 Acts 20:7 are Genitive
Plural—CHRISTIAN Greek IDIOM of / for “the First Day of the week”. Luke 18:12
Genitive Singular—world-wide IDIOM of / for “week”.
Look at Mark 15:42, it has “The Preparation which is The Fore-Sabbath”—it does
not even have, SABBATA, SABBATON whatever NONSENSE! It has
‘prosabbaton’ Nominative Singular of ‘prosabbaton’—not of ‘sabbaton’!
What a WASTE OF TIME AND ENERGY—God-given energy wasted on egocentric
SHOWING-OFF!
Rubies
As Jesus was our Firstfruits, His resurrection must
have occurred on the Day of Firstfruits; that is, on SUNDAY, the day AFTER the
Sabbath, as scripture clearly states. That is the only possible way that the
Lord's arithmetic –”50 days from the Sabbath during ULB to the day following
the 7th Sabbath”… can possibly be computed! It is clear that the Wave-sheaf
comes AFTER Passover.
COGs, I find, demean the Resurrection and glorify the DEATH of the Messiah.
This is tragic! It is the resurrection which is the victory of Jesus over sin
and death, and the crowning glory of our faith! 1Co 15:20 But in fact Christ
has been RAISED FROM THE DEAD, the FIRSTFRUITS of those who have fallen asleep.
So Jesus was resurrected on the Day of Barley Firstfruits, which is the day
FOLLOWING the Sabbath during ULB. Lev 23:11 He shall wave the sheaf before the
LORD, so that you may be accepted. On the day after the Sabbath the priest
shall wave it.
GE:
http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/seventh-day-adventist/TCMT0QQAME27RFJT4/p195
You say the truth, then lie directly against it. You
said, <Jesus was resurrected on the
Day of Barley Firstfruits, which is the day FOLLOWING the Sabbath during ULB.
Lev 23:11 He shall wave the sheaf before the LORD, so that you may be accepted.
On the day after the Sabbath the priest shall wave it.>
You said, <the
Sabbath during ULB> which was the “sabbath … to its SEASON”— “season” of
<ULB> Feast— “passover” : <the Sabbath during ULB> … “the
sabbath to its SEASON” … “the sabbath” of <ULB> … “the sabbath” of the Feast … “the sabbath” of “passover”!
It is “the day after the sabbath”— <during ULB>;
It is “the day after the sabbath”— “to its SEASON”;
It is “the day after the sabbath”– “first day seven days
eat ulb”;
It is “the day after the sabbath”— “Feast / Days of ULB”;
It is “the day after the sabbath”— “passover”.
From every angle First Sheaf is Waved “the day after the
sabbath”— <during
ULB> SEASON OF PASSOVER and not “The Sabbath”— “Rest Day-of-the-week”:
‘sabbatohn’.
Rubies said it. Rubies belies her own words which were
“as words of God”; now are words of a lying self-willed obstinate hypocrite.
From Rubies’ false stance, the impression is created
that the First Sheaf was always waved on the same day of the week, the First
Day of the week, “the day after the (Seventh Day) Sabbath”—according to her.
As if <the
Sabbath during ULB> was the Seventh Day Sabbath! As if the Seventh Day
Sabbath was always the second day of passover and first day of ulb!
As if the Seventh Day Sabbath always and not only
coincidentally happened to fall on <the Sabbath during ULB>;
As if the passover and First-Sheaf’s “rest-day /
sabbath” was
identically the Seventh Day Sabbath;
But the Seventh Day Sabbath was not fixed “on the
fifteenth day of the First Month”; it was not <the sabbath during ulb>.
<The (s)abbath
during ULB> was fixed “on the fifteenth day of the First Month”; <the (s)abbath during ULB>
ALWAYS—regardless on which day of the week it fell—, fell “on the fifteenth day
of the First Month”. “On the day after the sabbath” of the passover <during ULB>, “the priest shall wave
the first sheaf” --- regardless on which day of the week.
Rubies:
His resurrection must have
occurred on the Day of Firstfruits; that is, on SUNDAY, the day AFTER the
Sabbath, as scripture clearly states. That is the only possible way that the
Lord's arithmetic –”50 days from the Sabbath during ULB to the day following
the 7th Sabbath”… can possibly be computed!
GE:
Ja, it’s <the only possible way>
after you have made it the only possible way with your SCREAMING LIE, <on Sunday>! But you cover over
with the debris from your life-long trash-accumulation where the same ‘floating
sabbath’ “to its season” in its usual setting and order is described with “seven
sevens (of days)” and the “count” is started “on the day the sickle is put to
the corn”—any day of the week it always would be— on the day after “the day
after the sabbath” of the passover— on any day of the week which “YE”– the Jews
–”proclaimed”—not God!
“The day after the sabbath” of the passover of course was the day upon which
the First Sheaf was waved before the LORD, on the 16th day of the month; and “the
day the sickle is put to the corn” formally starting the harvest was the day
AFTER “the day after the sabbath” OF THE PASSOVER. In other words, full-time
harvesting began on the 17th day of the First Month. Deuteronomy 16 and
Leviticus 23 do not differ; they are different because they refer to different
days of passover period.
Leviticus refers to and explains and uses for example,
the EXODUS-passover. At the exodus passover the day they killed the passover
was the fourteenth day of the First Month.
Now --- exactly because it was the ONLY EVER, FIRST, Passover of Yahweh and the
third day after was “the day The Seventh Day Sabbath REST Day OF THE LORD GOD”
which for that very reason was written into the Fourth Commandment --- for
seven weeks after “the day after the sabbath” of the passover happened to be “the
Sabbath OF THE LORD GOD”.
That is why Leviticus uses the words, “seven SABBATHS are counted from the day
after the (great day) sabbath” of the passover— beginning to count with and on the
historic first Seventh Day Sabbath “the day after the sabbath” of the passover
as later instituted “on the fifteenth day of the First Month”.
Rubies do not only pervert the language of the passover Scriptures; she
perverts every aspect of the historic truth of the event of the first --- and,
subsequent --- passovers until the last ever and last Passover of Jesus Christ
on earth.
Rubies:
Now, the Lord tells us to count “7 complete sabbaths”
or “7 full weeks” from THIS day!
GE:
Not so! The Torah tells us in Leviticus 23, to BEGIN count
“7 complete SABBATHS”-weeks, from the first “day after the sabbath” of the
passover—which HAPPENED to be the Seventh Day Sabbath AT THE EXODUS in Exodus
10 to 15.
But the Torah tells us in Deuteronomy 16 to BEGIN count
<7 full WEEKS>-of
“seven(day)s”, “from the day ye put the sickle to the corn”—not as you claim
<from THIS day> in Leviticus 23
the Seventh Day Sabbath! Therefore –<50
days from the (Seventh Day) Sabbath during ULB to the day following the 7th
Sabbath>, is Rubies’ <arithmetic>--not
<the Lord's arithmetic>.
Rubies:
That is – 50 DAYS from the
Sabbath, the day before the wave-sheaf. The day following a series of 7
Sabbaths can ONLY be Sunday! Therefore, 7 full weeks = 49 days before this –
the Day of Firstfruits – the day of Christ's Resurrection – can ONLY be Sunday!
This double count of 49 weeks + 1 day from a Sabbath = 50 days which is the day
after a Sabbath, is absolute proof that both Feasts of Firstfruits – both
Barley and Wheat – were invariably on SUNDAYS. No matter what the Pharisees or
COGs or Gerhard say.
Lev 23:15 “You shall count 7 full weeks from the day after the Sabbath, from
the day that you brought the sheaf of the wave offering. 16 You shall count 50
days to the day after the 7th Sabbath. Then you shall present a grain offering
of new grain to the LORD.” We must necessarily arrive at a SUNDAY for
Pentecost, being the day following the 7th Sabbath : Using Huie's dates : 17th
Nisan = SABBATH during ULB.
GE:
There is no logic, no system, no <arithmetic>, no consistency—no sense
in your spinning. The first passover at the exodus from
The much later Deuteronomy 16 record of the passover,
again, depends on the long-established and accustomed Leviticus- institution with
its integrated feast of weeks up to Pentecost.
But the Deuteronomy institution is purely agricultural
and
does not “count” or culminate to the religious climax
at Pentecost which Leviticus focused on at the time of the giving of the Law.
In Deuteronomy the harvest is the feast “counted” and culminated with the feast
of tabernacles, “seven days, after thou hast gathered in thy corn and thy wine”.
Deuteronomy brings the winter and summer harvests together in three annual
feasts of …
1) the Incarnation
of the Son of God “in the feast of tabernacles… rejoice in thy feast… seven
days”;
2) the Suffering
of Christ “in the feast of unleavened bread” the Passover of Yahweh;
3) the Resurrection
of Christ “in the feast of weeks” culminating in the Jubilee and Supper of
“LEAVENED LOAVES” OF “BREAD OF LIFE”, “NEW IN THE KINGDOM OF GOD”.
All three these feasts converged in Jesus Christ—and
all three
respectively converged in Christ on the same day of
“the day
The Seventh Day Sabbath OF THE LORD GOD”, “God THUS
CONCERNING, spake.”
The last “meal prepared for Him”—Jesus, was on the
Sabbath “six days before the Feast Days’”, “first day of seven days ulb.” John
12:1,12;
“Christ rose from the dead the third day…”, “on the
Sabbath”. Matthew 27:64; 28:1.
A basic mistake which expositors of the
Pentecost-Scriptures like Rubies, make, is to begin to count the ‘seven weeks’
with the last day of each “seven-days-week” instead of with its first day. They
use multiplication where the Scriptures say, “count”—from the first day to the
last of the 49—Deuteronomy, or, 50 days--Leviticus.
Another basic mistake on the expositors’ account is
that they never distinguish between Leviticus 23 and Deuteronomy 16, but
instead, identify them.
Leviticus 23 stipulates “seven weeks-of-sabbaths” by
beginning each “sabbath’s-week” with the Seventh Day
of the week Sabbath.
In Leviticus 23:16 “seven weeks-of-Sabbaths” (7x7 Sabbaths) to “the day after the
seventh of seven weeks-of-Sabbaths fifty days” were counted, BEGINNING on and
with the first “Sabbath”---seven times. In Leviticus therefore, the Sabbath
Seventh Day of the week was “the day after the sabbath”, “to its season”, and
was “counted”, ‘day 1’. Leviticus 23 indicates the “seven weeks-of-sabbaths”
with the “Sabbath” Seventh Day of the week.
Deuteronomy 16 though, indicates “seven sevens” or
‘seven
weeks’, or “seven sevens”-of-days—of WORKING days!
Each “seven of seven (days)” BEGAN with a working or ‘week-day’, unlike in
Leviticus where each “week-of-seven(-days)” was a “Sabbath’s-week-of-seven(-days)”,
having historically at the exodus been the Seventh Day of the week “Sabbath”.
At and after the exodus (in Exodus and Leviticus), <the sabbath during ULB> was “the sabbath to its season”—its
passover– “season” and “the day after the sabbath” was—historically—the
“Sabbath of the LORD”. Leviticus 23:3,38.
No longer was the Seventh Day Sabbath the marker and
beginner of each of the “seven Sabbaths of weeks” or “seven weeks of Sabbaths”
in Deuteronomy! Now “the DAY after the sabbath … to its season” of the
passover, was any day of the week which BEGAN each of the “seven
sevens(-of-weeks)” or “seven weeks” –of-any-days. Deuteronomy generalises the
“weeks”, simply calling the first day of every “sevens(-of-days)”, “the day you
shall put the sickle to the corn” and begin the harvest for 7x7=49 days.
“Pentecost fully come” was on the Sabbath at Sinai :
“fifty days counted from the (SABBATH) DAY after the rest-day-sabbath /
burial-day-sabbath” of the First Sheaf which was
1) “cut… on the day that you reap(ed) the corners of
your field… (and was) lifted high… and was carried up… and was
brought to… the Priest… on the BONE-DAY… the
fourteenth
day of the First Month”; and Leviticus 23:21,22;
8,10,11.
2) “On the fifteenth day of the First Month”, on “the
sabbath-rest-day … to its season” of the First Sheaf [Jesus’ Burial day], the
First Sheaf [Jesus] was lying in state in the sanctuary under the watchful eye
of the priest.
3) “On the sixteenth day of the First Month they
FINISHED to
cleanse the House of the LORD” and the First Sheaf was
brought in, and was “WAVED BEFORE THE LORD”, “in the
“On the eighth day of the month they came to the porch
of the LORD [Jesus arrives in
The expositors also do not treat “the week” in the OT
any
different from the ‘week’ in the NT and in
contemporary thinking. The world today think of the week as the seven days from
Sunday to Saturday; and in the New Testament the week was, “the First”, the
Second, until the “Sabbath Day” or “Seventh Day”. But in the Torah and until
the Christian era, a ‘hebdomas-week’ in fact was simply any seven days in
succession and was mainly used, specifically for ‘ceremonial’, ‘holy days’.
Rubies:
18th Nisan = Wave-sheaf on
SUNDAY = 1 day
1st Sabbath AFTER WAVE-SHEAF = 24th Nisan = 7 days
2nd Sabbath = 1st Iyyar = 14 days
3rd Sabbath = 8th Iyyar = 21 days
4th Sabbath = 15th Iyyar = 28 days
5th Sabbath = 22nd Iyyar = 35 days
6th Sabbath = 29th Iyyar = 42 days
7th Sabbath = 7th Sivan = 49 days
The day AFTER the 7th Sabbath = 8th Sivan = 50 days
from the Sabbath during ULB.
SHAVUOT = the day AFTER the 7th Sabbath
Feast of Weeks (Pentecost)= Sunday 8th SIVAN.
Sabbath 17 Nisan + 50 days = 8 SIVAN.
But Huie's “7 Sabbaths” comes to 1 SIVAN.
That is only 43 days! This proves his theory false.
His interpretation of “DEUTEROPROTOS” is therefore wrong. His interpretation of
“the first day of the week” (in Matt 28:1; Mark 16:2; Luke 24:1; John 20:1, 19)
as “one of the 7 sabbaths” is false. The traditional view was correct all along
– which is, that Jesus rose as our Wave-sheaf, presented before the Lord so
that we may be accepted, on the day after the Sabbath, “on the first day of the
week.” NOT as Huie has it, “On the first weekly Sabbath between Passover and
Pentecost.”
.
GE:
Again, you are your LYING SELF! It is NOT <This double count
of 49 weeks + 1 day from a
Sabbath> --- <from>, a seventh Day Sabbath! It is “from the DAY after the
sabbath”--- of the passover --- WHICHEVER day ‘of the week’, because it was the
passover’s “sabbath TO ITS SEASON”: “on the fifteenth day of the First MONTH”!
It was “the day after the sabbath” of “the MONTH of Abib”: “Observe the MONTH
of Abib”, observe its “days”, “proclaimed” to be “observed”—MONTH’S “days”
DATED, “new moon” the first day of the First Month; its “tenth day”, “the
fourteenth day”, “the fifteenth day”, “the sixteenth day”, “the one and
twentieth day”. “The day after the sabbath DAY” OF the passover IN the MONTH of
the passover “TO ITS SEASON” in the year— “begin count the day after the
sabbath”—‘annual sabbath’. If it so happened “the day after the sabbath” was
the Sabbath of the LORD, then the Sabbath of the LORD was day 1 of 7 times 7
days-weeks counted.
7 times 7 days-weeks never were counted, as you have it, <from the Sabbath, the day before the
wave-sheaf>, but “from the day after the sabbath”—the “sabbath”
of passover the day before the wave-sheaf! It always was: “Count from the
DAY after the sabbath”— “the sabbath” during which the First Sheaf was kept
inside before the priest brought it out and waved it before the LORD. The
passover’s “sabbath” was Jesus our Passover’s “sabbath-rest” in the grave.
Jesus’ passover– “sabbath-rest” in the grave is pictured by Isaiah as Jesus’
death’s FAST in chapter 57 from which God on His Holy Day “RESTED HIM UP AGAIN
HIS NAME BEING THE MOST HOLY PLACE”: “on the heights of the earth” BEFORE THE
LORD in chapter 58.
No one has noticed that the Law was not given fifty
days after the passover’s ‘sabbath” on the fifteenth day of the First Month.
Everybody has always been blind to the actual events of the fiftieth day after “the
fifteenth day of the First Month-sabbath”.
On the fiftieth day after “the fifteenth day of the First Month-sabbath” of
passover God revealed Himself as the HOLY SPIRIT and only three days after
‘Pentecost’, did He give his Law-in-stones. IT WAS THE FIRST passover which
Jesus Christ was the perfect anti-type of. It was followed by “seven
weeks-of-SABBATHS” so that “the day after the seventh of (the) Sabbath-weeks”
again fell on the real Sabbath on the Seventh Day of the week. God once again
revealed Himself as the HOLY SPIRIT on ‘Pentecost-SABBATH’. Not Huie or
whoever or Rubies took this into account. Not Huie or Rubies or Huiever can get
it right therefore.
Rubies:
Huie writes, “There was an annual date just after
Passover at the time of Yeshua known as the “First Sabbath”; this was the first
weekly Sabbath after the Passover high Sabbath. “One of the Sabbaths,”
mentioned by all of the Gospel writers (Matt. 28:1; Mark 16:2; Luke 24:1; John
20:1, 19), refers to this very “First Sabbath”! When English translators render
the Greek text as “first day of the week,” they do so because of tradition. The
most logical translation would be the most literal: 'One of the Sabbaths.' “...
Furthermore, it's likely that the “first day of the week,” Sunday, is NEVER
even mentioned in the Greek New Testament. “May God help us to put away the
traditions of men and obey His Torah!”
So here, Huie is mistaken, and the traditional view is correct. He has
misrepresented the Greek translations to support his case, and has been caught
out by the simple fact that 7 weeks + 1 day = 50 days between the Sabbath
during ULB and Pentecost on Sunday, whereas his scheme has only 42 days from
Wave-sheaf to Pentecost. In fact, it is the COG doctrine which is the “traditions
of men” that we need to “put away”!
And in what way does he think he is obeying the Torah? The Jews know that
without a
GE:
Yes, Huie is mistaken; but so are you, Rubies.
If there was <an annual date just
after Passover at the time of Yeshua known as the “First Sabbath”>, this
must have been <the first weekly
Sabbath after the Passover high Sabbath>: IN JOHN 19:31! SO BY MY KOOL!
What a brilliant ruby discovered! I just hope it’s genuine!
Huie is wrong with his references to <Matt.
28:1; Mark 16:2; Luke 24:1; John 20:1, 19 as refer(ing) to this very “First Sabbath” … just after Passover at the
time of Yeshua>.
But John 19:31 is the perfect fit.
Because “that day great day of sabbath” in John 19:31 “was the
Preparation”—in fact, “the Preparation which is the Fore-Sabbath” or “Preparation
of the Jews” in Mark 15:42 John 19:42 which was BOTH <an annual date just after Passover> “when they KILLED the
passover”, AND, was <the first weekly
Sabbath after the Passover high Sabbath> on which Joseph the day before
the weekly Sabbath, had the body of Jesus buried. Luke 23:54 John 19:42. Yippee!
My day has been made! Wish I knew more about this <annual date just after Passover at the time of Yeshua known as the “First
Sabbath”>.
Huie is mistaken—I can nevertheless say—in that he
presupposes ONE DAY IN BETWEEN that <annual
date just after Passover> and <the
first weekly Sabbath after the Passover high Sabbath>.
Kevin:
Lev 23:16 Even
unto the morrow after the seventh sabbath shall ye number fifty days; and ye
shall offer a new meat offering unto the LORD. What day is the morrow after the
sabbath? Lev. 23 is plain, seven "shabbaths" shall be complete. A "shabbath"
can not be from Tuesday to Tuesday, it can only be from Sabbath to Sabbath. So
Lev. 23:16 does indeed say that the fiftieth day is always on the day after the
Sabbath. It does not fall on any day of the week as the Jews count.
GE:
This is Leviticus
based on Exodus 12-14.
Kevin:
You keep insisting
here that the hebrew word "shabbath" means weeks, it does not. A
shabbath can not be from Tuesday to Tuesday or from Friday to Friday. Shabbath
either means the Sabbath or theseven day period from one Sabbath to another. It
never means Tuesday to Tuesday. So the seven sabbaths - weeks must be counted
from the weekly sabbath for the 50th day to fall after the seventh
"shabbath".
GE:
This is Kevin
PRESUPPOSING Leviticus / Exodus STILL.
Kevin, please go
read Deuteronomy 16 where it presupposes “sevens-weeks” which fell on any 7
days in succession of the “Sabbath-week” as presupposed in Leviticus.
I made it plain
more than once.
Levitus / Exodus
presupposed reaches from the RELIGIOUS observance of passover to the RELIGIOUS
observance of Shavuot. It is THEREFORE, based on the HISTORIC religious event
of the exodus when Israel finished the third of the “three days darkness” ON
THE SABBATH, “the day after the sabbath” (as instituted when Israel was settled
in Canaan) : and the Sabbath Seventh Day of the week was “the day after the
sabbath” of the passover-exodus and the day the count of seven “Sabbaths-weeks”
had to be started WITH.
But Deuteronomy 16
presupposes nothing historical or religious, and only deals with agricultural
dates and days of harvest—hence the “ANY-seven-days-of-the-week” demarcation to
just 49 days, and not to the additional (religious) day after as in Leviticus.
So, I do not deny
the “weeks” in Deuteronomy <<can
not be from Tuesday to Tuesday or from Friday to Friday>>. And I DO
NOT CALL them <<A shabbath>>
as you claim I do.
Kevin:
Deut. must agree
with Leviticus, and it is Leviticus that calls the seven "shabbaths",
not you.
So I don't care if
Deut. says seven sevens, it must agree with Leviticus which says seven
shabbaths. Seven shabbaths are seven sevens, but seven Tuesdays to Tuesdays are
not seven shabbaths.
Your and the Jews
starting the 50 day count with the first day of Unleavened bread, the 15th of
abib is unbiblical whether you like it or not.
GE:
Are you claiming
Deuteronomy contradicts Leviticus?
I do not.
And you are
mistaken totally, claiming, <<… the
Jews starting the 50 day count with the first day of Unleavened bread, the 15th
of abib>>— They don’t; the Jews start the 50 day count “the day
AFTER” <<the first day of
Unleavened bread, the 15th of abib>> WHICH IS “the sabbath” Leviticus
23:11,15,16 mention.
It’s hard to kick
against the pricks of the facts, hey, buddy? It
takes humbleness,
courage and character, to admit mistake --- very precious and scares
commodities indeed…
Re: <…the Jews starting the 50 day count> is an incorrect statement. They did not count
<50 days>; they counted “seven sevens (of days/weeks)’—‘seven
hebdomas’. And when as usual when they harvested, they counted “seven sevens”,
they counted just that and no day more after. Israel according to passover Law,
Torah, ALWAYS started to count the “seven weeks-of-seven days” of harvesting—to
harvest was “SERVILE work”—, NOT “from (on) the day after the sabbath” of the
passover as in Leviticus / Exodus, BUT, “FROM THE DAY…” they actually and full
time for the servile work of harvesting every day for the next seven weeks,
“…PUT THE SICKLE TO THE CORN”!
Now of course when
“the sabbath” of the passover (Abib 15)—AS to the analogy of the exodus found
in Leviticus—, happened to fall on a Sixth Day of the week, then, “the day
after the sabbath” (of Abib 15 the ‘passover-sabbath’), would be the Seventh
Day Sabbath (Abib 16). In such cases, “the sickle (was) put to the corn” on the
First Day on Abib 17 for the first full day of harvesting. Otherwise
(normally), harvesting as well as the count of the “seven weeks” would begin no
matter which day of the week, on Abib 16 “the day after the sabbath” of the
passover Abib 15, again, regardless the day of the week. For that “first day” [*Deuteronomy
16:4] and for the next “seven weeks” or 49 days, the harvest would go on.
Theoretically therefore, the last day of harvesting could be a Seventh Day
Sabbath; but because no servile work was allowed on it, the harvest had had to
be completed on the Sixth Day before the Seventh Day Sabbath—AS happened in
Leviticus to the analogy of the exodus. “The day after the seven weeks” of
harvest thus “counted”, then also happened to be a Seventh Day Sabbath. But
Pentecost, like all passover days and dates, eventually also occurred
“according to its season” on any day of the week.
Kevin:
You are confused about the counting of fifty days. The
Jews count from the morrow after the annual sabbath of Unleavened Bread but the
problem with that method of counting is that it does not always bring you 50
days later to a morrow after a sabbath. It does not say the morrow after the
seventh week, it says that Pentecost is to be the morrow after the sabbath.
GE:
In Leviticus “seven sabbaths’-weeks” = 7 x 7
days-weeks determined by its first day counted which was the Seventh Day
Sabbath for which reason Leviticus uses “Sabbaths” to describe the 7 groups of 7
days each of which BEGAN with a 7th day “Sabbath”—in Leviticus, where the 7 x “sabbaths'-weeks”
must be counted “FROM the day after the sabbath” OF THE PASSOVER, whichever day
of the week it might have fallen upon.
In Leviticus which mirrors the exodus passover, “the
day after the sabbath” HAPPENED TO BE the Sabbath commanded to be kept for
reason that it was the day on which God had brought
Now Leviticus 23:16 declared, “including the day after
the-seventh sabbaths'-week, you shall count fifty days.” It does NOT say, the
fiftieth day--Pentecost <is to be the morrow after the sabbath>. You are
wrong, Kenneth. Leviticus specifies the last unit of seven days which was a
“Sabbath-Day-unit-of-seven-days”. Thus it is WRITTEN. Sorry. But that is God’s
Written Word.
Kevin:
It does not say the morrow after the seventh week, it
says that Pentecost is to be the morrow after the sabbath.
GE:
Where does it say that?! It does not. READ Leviticus
23:16. In Hebrew “after the SEVENTH-shabbath”—‘shebii-shabbath’.
Kevin:
The prophecy says that he will cause the sacrifice and
oblations to cease, which Jesus' death did. That does
not mean he can't reinstate them at some point in the future. So my argument
does not collapse. I have no idea why he would reinstate them, but as you say
Ezekiel prophecies seem to say he does.
GE:
If any sacrifice will have to be “reinstated” it will
have to be Jesus Christ the Lamb of God. WHICH MEANS YOU NEGATE THAT CHRIST “OFFERED
HIMSELF A SACRIFICE ONCE FOREVER”. You CANNOT understand Ezekiel correct if
that is what you understand him to say. Why not just admit you do not and or
cannot understand Ezekiel? It most definitely is not going to cost you your
salvation.
Larry:
In the case of the Feast of Unleavened Bread (Ex
12:16, Lev 23:7, Num 28:18) and the Feast of Tabernacles (Lev 23:35), the first
day and the seventh day of the ceremony were to be sacred. As these two
ceremonies were held on a specific day of the month, the day of the week on
which they were held would change from year to year. See the following links
for the current years on which these ceremonies will be held. These texts have
no bearing on the question of which day of the week is to be kept sacred. These
were/are ceremonial sabbaths as opposed to the weekly sabbath. On the first day
of the ceremony, a convocation was held and on the last day of the ceremony, a
convocation was held, at the beginning and the end.
GE:
Those days are not said to be <<sacred>>. And only “the fifteenth
day of the First Month” is called “the sabbath” of the passover in only
Leviticus 23:11,25,16; and only in the NT in John 19:31 is called “That Day …
great day sabbath” --- of the
passover.
Did you know that “That Day” had “the, very, special”,
“NAME” : “the_NAME_of_the_day”, of, “the SELFSAME WHOLE DAY BONE-DAY” in which
“THE BLOODY CITY … in the same day they defiled My Sanctuary” crucified and
killed Jesus Christ at the last passover? Ezekiel 24:2; 23:38!
Did you know “That Day” is found specifically
demarcated and indicated in the Gospels as the day Joseph BURIED the body of
Jesus on?
Here…
From Mark 15:42 Matthew 27:57 John 19:31,38, Luke
23:50 to John 19:42 “by the time of the Jews’ preparation” (for the Sabbath of
the LORD) and Luke 23:54, “mid-afternoon the
Sabbath (according to the (Fourth) Commandment)
nearing”.
Did you know these things? Well let me tell you
something you also have not known before you came on to this forum discussion:
EVERYBODY HERE, HATES THESE TRUTHS WITH ALL THEIR BEING.
Rubies:
Huie writes : “The Good
Friday/Easter Sunday proponents' contention that “the Preparation Day” ONLY
refers to Friday is clearly unsupportable.
GE:
The assumption that <the
Preparation Day> … ONLY <refers
to Friday>, is of course absolute nonsense! Friday Crossites have NEVER
resorted to this preposterousness before the WCs started with it --- ALSO just
about the beginning of this, the 21st century AD. … but now that I think
of it ---isn’t this exactly what Rubies has been advocating at the hand of her
‘hetoimadzia’-philosophy?! IT IS!
.
http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/seventh-day-adventist/TCMT0QQAME27RFJT4/p187
Huie:
As the Wednesday burial/Sabbath morning
resurrection chronology above shows, this “Preparation Day of the Passover”
(John 19:14) would have been Wednesday, Nisan 14 (see the Jewish calendar
for 30 CE to verify this date).
Rubies:
There is nothing “clearly insupportable” about the fact that PARASKEUE is
the Greek name for FRIDAY.
GE:
Yes, ‘paraskeueh’ <is the Greek
name for FRIDAY>; every person in his right mind knows that. But every
person in his right mind will also know that ‘paraskeueh’ <is the Greek name for FRIDAY> in the
right CONTEXT. Because any person in his right mind will not just use the
passages where ‘paraskeueh’ is used for OTHER things and days than the Sixth
Day “Preparation of the Jews” for the Sabbath as in John 19:42 and Luke 23:54,
to wrap his sandwiches in and throw them away afterwards. Because any
person in his right mind can SEE that “the Preparation which is the
Fore-Sabbath” is Friday, but “the Preparation OF THE Passover” more
than 24 hours before on the day before at least 12 hours before “it had become
evening already the Preparation which is the Fore-Sabbath” in Mark 15:42, IS
THE “Preparation of the passover” the Fifth Day of the
week the day BEFORE Friday.
Rubies:
There is nothing “clearly insupportable” about the fact that …. if 14 Nisan
was called “the Preparation Day of the Passover,” then it would be called “HETOIMASIA,”
as all 9 references to the Passover being PREPARED, use the word HETOIMAZO,
not paraskeue.
GE:
Now what are you saying?! Are you saying <that PARASKEUE is the Greek name for FRIDAY>? Or are you saying <the Preparation Day of the Passover would be
called <HETOIMASIA>? THEN WHY IS “the Preparation Day of the Passover”
NOT <called “HETOIMASIA”>, but “the
Preparation Day of the Passover”, <PARASKEUE>?!
And why is—according to faked Rubies— <HETOIMASIA” used for <the
Passover being PREPARED … as [in] all 9 references … not paraskeue” and not
for The Preparation DAY per se?! <Clearly
insupportable> to say the least!
More … Truth is, as I showed months ago, <HETOIMASIA> is not in one single <reference> in the whole of the New Testament used as a
Substantive or Nomen as in the Name of a day (of the week). NOT ONCE! In fact, ‘hehtoimadzoh’—‘to prepare’, is
only used in Verb-form or in Verbal-function --- ten different declensions or
inflections, call it what you like, but it never <would be called “hetoimasia”> a Noun—supposed to be! “Tell them
which are bidden, I have PREPARED my dinner; my oxen and my fatlings are KILLED
and all things MADE READY.” Matthew 22:4 ---‘hehtoimaka’; ‘hehtoimasa’. [Shhht
… don’t let her hear, but how she manufactured this faked ruby of hers, <called “HETOIMASIA”>, only she could
tell.]
Rubies:
Another major flaw in
Huie's paper is that he fails to deal with the fact that the disciples PREPARED
THE PASSOVER on the DAY OF ULB ON WHICH THE LAMBS MUST BE KILLED.
GE:
Yes, <the fact> is, the
disciples <PREPARED THE PASSOVER on
the DAY … ON WHICH THE LAMBS MUST BE KILLED.> But as I have many times
over several months and years now before shown, the disciples did not <on the DAY OF ULB> prepare the
passover. Just recently I again have showed it, http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/seventh-d... #1588 in answer to Reg. All that the Greek
says in Mark 14:12 Matthew 26:17 and Luke 22:7 is that it was “on
the first day ‘adzumos’—(of passover, the fourteenth day of the First
Month)—WITHOUT LEAVEN // leaven (was) REMOVED” Exodus 12:15a—which is
the same thing as “when they KILLED the passover” on the same day.
Rubies:
The thing that everyone
misses is this : If 14 Nisan was actually called “Preparation day for the
Passover,” whatever day of the week it was ... then WHAT WERE THE
DISCIPLES DOING, PREPARING THE PASSOVER THE PREVIOUS DAY??? That makes no
sense.
GE:
Indeed that makes no sense what you ask. The text actually makes perfect
sense. First you first TWISTED the text in order to suit your faked
genuine fraud. The text is not, <Preparation
day for the Passover>! The text is, “it was The Preparation OF the
Passover”—‘ehn Paraskeueh TOU Pascha’ which in the Torah is clearly DEFINED
as the day on which
1) “first of all (to) REMOVE leaven”, “in
this that day to be observed solemnly”;
then in the morning following “in this that day to
be solemnly observed … the selfsame bone-day …(to) …
2) “REAP the corners of your field”;
then to
3) “BRING the sheaf” (“that day” before the “third
hour”); then <in the mid-afternoon”
following “in this that day to be solemnly observed … the selfsame bone day
… the fourteenth
day of the First Month (to)
4) “KILL the passover”—
—which things done ALL “PREPARED the passover”
cf. Psalm 80:8,9 TO BE EATEN “in this that selfsame WHOLE NIGHT to be
solemnly observed”.
Rubies:
The disciples did as they
were commanded and PREPARED THE PASSOVER LAMB.
GE:
Verbose bombastic false accuser of Jesus and the disciples and the Gospel
writers of LYING! You, are doing the LYING!
Rubies:
Another major flaw in
Huie's paper is that he fails to deal with the fact that the disciples PREPARED
THE PASSOVER on the DAY OF ULB ON WHICH THE LAMBS MUST BE KILLED. Nor that
Jesus ATE the Passover after sunset that night!
Luk 22:7 Then came the day of Unleavened Bread, on which THE PASSOVER LAMB HAD
TO BE SACRIFICED. 8 So Jesus sent Peter and John, saying, “Go and PREPARE
THE PASSOVER FOR US, THAT WE MAY EAT IT.”
.
GE:
<the
disciples PREPARED THE PASSOVER on the DAY OF ULB ON WHICH THE LAMBS MUST BE
KILLED> So what you are
saying is that Jesus and his disciples sat down to eat the lamb that was
sacrificed already and roasted the lot ready to be eaten on the table at which
they sat down to eat. So what you say comes down to saying, Then came the day
of Unleavened Bread, on which THE PASSOVER LAMB HAD TO BE … EATEN!—NOT
sacrificed— “KILLED”, but eaten! Expose yourself! Reveal your shame before
everyone!
Rubies:
If 14 Nisan was actually
called “Preparation day for the Passover,” whatever day of the
week it was ... then WHAT WERE THE DISCIPLES DOING, PREPARING THE PASSOVER
THE PREVIOUS DAY???
GE:
In practice 14 Nisan was actually the Preparation Day FOR, the Passover—for
the Passover of Yahweh to be EATEN. But John actually called it “The
Preparation OF Passover” IN THE GOSPEL—not, <Preparation day for the Passover”.
So <WHAT WERE THE DISCIPLES DOING,
PREPARING THE PASSOVER THE PREVIOUS DAY???>? If you haven’t LIED so
much, you would have understood and known. But now you again LIE,
hypocritically ‘asking’ <WHAT WERE THE
DISCIPLES DOING, PREPARING THE PASSOVER THE PREVIOUS DAY???>—meaning
they did not, “prepare” but actually ate, <THE PASSOVER LAMB.>
No! But take your own words without the false cloak of
your own intention, and you actually have uncovered the truth, that the
disciples <were commanded and PREPARED
THE PASSOVER LAMB>— OF GOD, YES! But the disciples were not <the previous day … preparing the PASSOVER
lamb>. They prepared the passover or for the passover of JESUS, “ON
the first day leaven (was) removed, (the day) when they always had to kill the
passover (sacrifice).” Exodus 12:15. That was <WHAT> the Last Supper WAS FOR and WHY.
Rubies:
So far, there is nothing
in Huie's paper which is correct. How about his dating of the Passover 14
Nisan?
GE:
So far, there is nothing in Rubies’ extensive papers which is correct. How about her dating of the Passover 14
Nisan with reference to the SDAs’ dating
of it? There is nothing of concern about it here or anywhere as far as I, GE,
am concerned. It’s a lot of humbug from any side considering … in any case.
Rubies:
So far, there is nothing
in Huie's paper which is correct. How about his dating of the Passover 14
Nisan?
GE:
So further, all we get is what Rubies, further, LIES …
<Then after sunset, _Jesus and_ the
disciples ate>
<… Jesus and the disciples ate the
passover _LAMB_>
<the passover _lamb THEY_ prepared.>
<He was _crucified_ … on paraskeue,
which is “Friday”.>
<“Friday” in Greek> [Sic.]
<He _died_ on Friday>
<When He died … there was only 3 hours
to get His body off the tree and buried, before the sabbath began at sunset.>
<He died before the Sabbath>,
viz., before Friday.
<The SABBATH that year was the annual
Shabbat Hagadol>
<… it MUST have been the second
Sabbath of Nisan>
<the second Sabbath of Nisan therefore
14 Nisan.>
<This apparently moved the Passover
preparations forward in that year.>
I just cannot understand why Rubies every time she puts her lips to paper has
to LIE to make this so complicated! She stops at nothing, inventing all
kinds of fanciful ploys to avoid the simple Bible truth, just because she wants
to sell her selfish idolatrous Sunday doctrine.
Rubies:
This of course means that
Barley Firstfruits which is 49 days or 7 complete Sabbaths (that is, 7 full
weeks) previous to Wheat Firstfrutis, also necessarily falls on the first day
of the week every year. As the first day of the week floats through the DATES,
neither of these feasts is ever dated in scripture.
GE:
How do you TWIST the Scriptures! It is not <As the first day of the week floats through the DATES>; it is as
the incidental dated, human- “proclaimed”, ‘sabbaths’ through Israel’s history,
at the metre of “The Seventh Day Sabbath OF THE LORD GOD”, floated through the
since the creation existing and Divine- “ordained”, WEEK. You saying <neither of these feasts is ever dated in
scripture> is the most stupid and most flagrant LIE I ever have come
across!
Reg:
These texts have a different time in the Spring arriving on Sunday from
Jericho the Sunday triumphant entry into Jerusalem These texts Gerard
especially John 12:1 to John 12:11 because Jesus had not yet reached Jerusalem
until John 12:12
---JN 12:1 Then Jesus six days before the passover came to Bethany, where
Lazarus was, which had been dead, whom he raised from the dead. it was the
feast of dedication which was on the 25th of the 9th month Chislev our December
what follows are Jesus last 3 months on Earth
JN 10:30 I and my Father are one.---Jesus tells the Jews He and the Father are
one, and they begin
JN 11:7 Then after that saith he to his disciples, Let us go into Judaea again.
These verses tells of a letter from Martha to Jesus that Lazarus was sick and
would He come verses 6 and 7 now Gerard says was 3 months before winter and
quotes John 11:7 as his proof John 10:22 to 12:1 is an accurate account of
Christs last 3 months yet he says this is before John 10:22
So by Gerard’s reckoning Lazarus was taken ill 3 months before winter in the
Fall no text evidence only John 11:7 which is after John 19:22 the feast of
Dedication was in the 9th month on 25th to Lazarus
JN 11:54 Jesus therefore walked no more openly among the Jews; but went thence
unto a country near to the wilderness, into a city called Ephraim, and there
continued with his disciples. Read the whole story from John 10:22 to
12:1
This is Jesus last 3 months
Gerard wrote Jesus arrived at Bethany the day before the day implied in John 21
in other words John 12:1 was not Friday but Sabbath The reason why it
doesn’t fit HIS interpretation the bible says---John 12:1 Then Jesus six days
before the passover came to Bethany, where Lazarus was, which had been dead,
whom he raised from the dead.--- this is Friday to Wednesday = 6 days
EX 12:3 Speak ye unto all the congregation of Israel, saying, In the tenth day
of this month they shall take to them every man a lamb, according to the house
of their fathers, a lamb for an house:---Sabbath 14th day at Even 6To Thursday
= 6 days
Mark 14:1,2 is Tuesday to Thursday 2 days
Mathew 12:40 Thursday, Friday, Sabbath Mat 28:1
GE:
I hear you, Reg. But I think you don’t hear me. You see, <these verses> may be <Jesus last 3 months on Earth>. Fine.
So these last three months ended where He arrived in Bethany and “six days
before Days of ULB visited Lazarus where he stayed in Bethany and they prepared
for Him a meal”… lunch I would say.
Now the Feast “Days” the first one Abib 15 having been “The Preparation (which
is the Fore-Sabbath) and because THAT DAY was sabbath of great day (of the
passover”, ‘FRIDAY’—‘Thursday’ night and ‘Friday’ day—, “six days” before was
the Sabbath (Seventh Day) and “the next day”—five days before Abib 15 the first
day of ULB, would be the Sunday when Jesus entered Jerusalem on the
donkey.
You and I part ways where you—as I understand you—, say that Jesus “six days
before passover Feast Days” travelled the last leg to Jerusalem and, arrived in
Bethany, on FRIDAY (“six days before passover Feast Days”). But I am sure John
said that, having travelled the last leg to
http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/seventh-day-adventist/TCMT0QQAME27RFJT4/p188
GE:
That's why tradition has always had 'PALM SUNDAY',
right --- it has always placed Jesus' BURIAL ON FRIDAY and has always
dated Friday, Abib 15.
Where tradition has gone wrong, was where it did not recognise “THE WHOLE-DAY
BONE-DAY” the exclusive day that Jesus had to be BURIED on the Sixth Day of the
week, but has also placed Jesus’ Crucifixion and Death on it.
Reg:
Gerard what bible do you
use--- John 12:1 Then Jesus six days before the passover came to
Does NOT say 6 days before the feast of UNLEAVENED BREAD no wonder you are
wrong you put your own interpretation in to suit what you believe were Gods word
doesn’t agree John 12:1 says 6 days before the passover that
.
GE:
Reg, I have the whole
church who use the KJV ‘on my side’ despite its poor translation with
‘passover’, where the text has “DAYS of passover”—‘hehmerohn tou pascha’. Those
“days of passover” of course were the “seven days of ULB”.
The passover had only one other “day”— “the first day they KILLED the
passover”— “on the fourteenth”.
Therefore mentioning “days”—plural— “of passover”, it MUST be the “(seven) days
Unleavened Bread shall be Eaten” which AFTER the exodus began “on the fifteenth
day”.
Reg:
You have been quoting from
John 10:22 to John 12:1 and you have Jesus arriving in
GE:
I have Jesus arrive in
You got me wrong, Reg, I don’t say <Sunday>;
I say, arrived in Bethany on ‘Friday’ JUST LIKE YOU—BUT : arrived in Bethany on
Friday SEVEN days before “Days-of-Passover-Feast” the first
day of seven DAYS ULB was eaten on the fifteenth of the month.
Reg:
LOOK AT WHAT Mark 14:2
says AFTER 2 days IS the feast of the passover and didn’t want to kill Him that
day--- MK 14:2 But they said, Not on the feast day, lest there be an uproar of
the people.
Mat 26:2 is the same--- MT 26:2 Ye know that after two days is the feast of the
passover, and the Son of man is betrayed to be crucified.---we all have to face
Judgment if I were you I would spend a lot of time in prayer asking Christ if
what you are posting is His word
.
GE:
Reg HERE is where you lost
track… again…!
Mark 14: and Matthew 26:2 are NOT <the same>!
Mark 14:1 is the JEWS conniving two days before the feast “DAYS” would begin
with Abib 15 the “first day (of) seven ULB EATEN” Exodus 12:15B = Leviticus
23:6 = Exodus 12:7,8,18;
Matthew 26:2 is JESUS telling his disciples that He would be “CRUCIFIED
after two days”: on Abib 14 “the first, first day” Exodus 12:15A =“the first
day they KILLED the passover” Mark 14:12 Matthew 26:17 Luke 22:7
(John 13:1 to 19:14 to 30) = Exodus 12:6 = Leviticus 23:5.
Mark 14: and Matthew 26:2 are NOT the same!
Reg HERE is where you lost track!
But you have come nearer to the full truth than ANYONE ELSE!
Matthew 26:2 “You know that after two days the
SUFFERING occurs indeed the Son of Man delivered and CRUCIFIED!”—‘oidate hote
meta duo hehmeras to pascha ginetai kai ho Uios tou Anthrohpou paradidotai eis
to staurohthehnai’.
Matthew 26:3, “THEN afterwards (the following day the JEWS) the high
priests and the elders connived …”—
=
Mark 14:1 “The passover and THE DAYS-of-unleavened bread were after two days
and the chief priests and scribes connived how they might kill Him”—‘ehn de to
pascha kai TA adzuma meta dua hehmeras’—
=
Matthew 26:14, “(w)hen Judas went to them and they pact with him” = Mark
14:10 “Judas went to the chief priests to betray Him.”
Therefore Matthew 26:2 is first in time—two days before Jesus would
be crucified on Abib 14;
And Mark 14:1 was the next day when the Jews—two days before the Feast (on Abib
15), connived to kill Jesus. “BUT they said, NOT ON THE FEAST!” In other
words, they only had the next day, the day “before the Feast” John 13:1, to
kill Jesus on. So they crucified Jesus 9 o’clock the next day on the day “before
the Feast”— three hours after Pilate that same day had delivered Him over to the
Jews to be crucified “six o’clock in the morning and it was The
Preparation-of-the Passover.” John 19:14.
Matthew 26:2 stands on its own.
But Mark 14:1,2 and Matthew 26:3—the Jews’
“consulting”, <are the same>;
and Mark 14:10 and Matthew 26:14—Judas’ complotting with the Jews, <are the same> and happened on the
same day, “two days before the Feast”.
GE:
The story or record of the day Jesus’ body was buried
on, starts in John 19:31, “EVENING HAVING BEGUN ALREADY” in Mark 15:42 and Matthew 27:57, then
later on JOSEPH BEGAN TO UNDERTAKE John 19:38 by first of all to get permission and
the body itself MUCH LATER “removed”, and “delivered”, and “prostrated” in the
proper place for such exercises, etc etc.
“This first night Nicodemus came to him (Joseph)” where they “to the
law-of-Ethics of the Jews to bury” the Torah in Exodus 12,13, IN ORDER TO
the following “mid-afternoon the Sabbath drawing near (because) that day was the
Preparation”, lay Him down in the tomb.
Rubies:
Another of your misconceptions … to buttress your
ludicrous “BONE-DAY” theory, is of this verse:
Joh 19:39 Nicodemus also, who EARLIER had come to Jesus BY
NIGHT, came bringing a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about 75 pounds in
weight. You shamelessly dislocate and pervert the simple Bible text in pursuit
of your Impossible
Dream of “BONE-DAY”.
GE:
http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/seventh-day-adventist/TCMT0QQAME27RFJT4/p197
Halt! It is Rubies who shamelessly dislocates and
perverts the simple Bible text in pursuit of her Impossible Dream of Friday
Crucifixion and Sunday Resurrection by adding her own word <EARLIER> alongside her predecessor
fraudster’s arbitrary inserted word, <Jesus>.
<The simple Bible Text> does
not contain either words! But “that first night” was “Bone-Day” and passover’s
“first day (of) seven days ulb eaten” which, due to Jesus’ Passover
Meal-of-Suffering, was never eaten by any Jews including Joseph and Nicodemus.
It was the “evening”-beginning of Abib 15—does Rubies now suddenly want to deny
it?
Rubies:
The text does NOT say as
you claim : “this first night Nicodemus came to him (Joseph)”.
GE:
O not!? What is this, ‘éhlthen de kai Nikódehmos ho
elthóhn pros autón (Iohséhph) nuktós to próhton’?
Rubies:
The text DOES identify
NICODEMUS as that same man who, EARLIER, HAD COME to JESUS BY NIGHT.
GE:
<HAD COME>:
Indicative?! Rubbish! ‘elthohn’ Adverbial _Punctiliar_ Participle, “Nicodemus
_when_ coming to Joseph
bearing a mixture”—‘éhlthen elthóhn phérohn mígma’—not
years ago before, but punctiliar that: “at the (very) first night (of
ulb)”—‘nuktós to próhton’. And just watch Rubies <shamelessly dislocating and perverting the simple Bible text>
with <that _SAME_ man who…>!
Never! The simple Bible text, is, “Therefore
indeed came Nicodemus who joined (Joseph) the First Night (of ulb), bringing
a mixture of
hundred pounds of myrrh and aloe.” That is <the simple Bible text>:- word for word:
‘éhlthen’— “came”;
‘de kai’— “indeed”;
‘Nikódemos ho’— “Nicodemus who”;
‘elthóhn pros autón’— “came to him” / “joined him” / “having
met him”;
‘nuktós to próhton’— “The First Night (of ulb Abib
15)”;
‘phérohn mígma smúrnehs kai alóehs hohs lítras
hekatón’—
“a mixture of hundred pounds myrrh and aloes.”
Rubies:
Nicodemus did NOT “come to JOSEPH by night” as you
imagine!!! We are intended to recall the story of Nicodemus, the Pharisee ruler
who was too cowardly to be seen with Jesus in the daylight, but sneakily came
by cover of darkness : Joh 3:1
GE:
Denied! <We
are intended to> read, “Nicodemus coming to him (Joseph) the first
night (of ulb)”—‘nuktos to prohton’.
Rubies:
Now there was a man of the Pharisees named
Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. Joh 3:2 THIS MAN CAME TO JESUS BY
NIGHT and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from
God.
GE:
We are not reading John 3; but John 19. We don’t read
“by night” simply; we read that, “The _First_ Night”. We don’t read Nicodemus’
story; we are reading the story of Jesus’ BURIAL “The First Night (of ulb)”—
‘nuktos to prohton’, when “Nicodemus came to Joseph and THEY took the body of
Jesus and wound it in linen.” Verse 40.
Rubies:
It was either at or
shortly after the FIRST PASSOVER of Jesus' ministry that Nicodemus “CAME BY
NIGHT.” But you Gerhard, misconstrue this as being the night after Jesus was
crucified.
GE:
I object! Speak for yourself; it’s YOU who misconstrue
the story of Jesus’ Burial <the night
after Jesus was crucified> as being <the FIRST PASSOVER of Jesus' ministry that Nicodemus “CAME BY NIGHT.”>
And thanks for admitting and stating yourself the
TRUTH <this as being the _night_ after
Jesus was crucified.> ---- an interesting development I see --- Rubies
conceded to a NIGHT undertaking by Joseph and Nicodemus to bury the body of
Jesus --- quite revolutionary and ALARMING!
Rubies:
WOE to those who put good for evil and evil for good.
What a very pertinent proof you have given us, of your most appalling
comprehension! I never wrote any such thing!
I wrote that YOU use this falsehood to prop up your gimpy “BONE-DAY” heresy.
WHAT I WROTE was this ... that NIcodemus was the man who FIRST CAME TO JESUS BY
NIGHT, after teh FIRST PASSOVER of His ministry ... and that JOSEPH &
NICODEMUS BURIED JESUS between 3pm & 6pm on FRIDAY. This is what I have
ALWAYS maintained in crystal clear black & white.
A LIAR is someone who deliberately tells falsehoods. This simply does not apply
to me. If at any time you imagine that I have told a lie, then you are within
your rights to respectfully query what I have said, but any accusation that I
am a LIAR, is purely a vindictive fabrication on your part.
Gerhard, for a theologian, you make a passable plumber. Any chance of checking
out my septic tank? You may be qualified to do that, but where scriptural
comprehension is concerned, your brain is in the sewer. Your appalling
comprehension of both Bible text and believers' comments has led you astray
multitudinous times, and this gross error is most definitely an example of
that.
Reg:
The last passover does not
match up with the first in the time the lamb was slain OT beginning of 15th NT
3pm on 14th God allowed that change some 200 years before from evening
sacrifices 15th to 3pm on the 14th so that the events of the last passover
would bring about Christs death just after sunset on 15th Joseph went to Pilot
AFTER sunset to beg thebody of Christ Mat 27:57, Luke 23:50-54, Mark 15:42,
John 19:31
GE:
At last you recognised that <change
(was) allowed>, Reg!
In fact it was God who CAUSED the change through the passover of Yahweh in
Now the Last Passover DOES <match up
with the first passover in time>. In both the New AND Old
Testaments the lamb was slain <3pm on
14th>—NEVER in the OT was the lamb slain <beginning of 15th>—NEVER; it was ALWAYS in the OT <3pm on 14th> always! The same in the
New Testament, because <3pm on 14th>
is exactly the same as the <evening
sacrifices>. You have it WRONG, Reg, that <evening sacrifices> were <just
after sunset>. They were not; they were <evening sacrifices--evening>,
the OLD English for “late, in the afternoon”—<3pm on 14th>!
Just the meaning you give to the word ‘evening’, Reg, that it meant <just after sunset>---there’s your
problem! ‘Evening’ can and does mean different things in the Old
Testament, Reg; it can mean ‘late afternoon’/‘mid-afternoon’, or it can mean
from <just after sunset> until
dark night; in other words, ‘dusk’. And the word ‘eve’ in the old English
of the KJ Old Testament, will most probable every time mean the same as
‘evening’ meaning ‘late afternoon’ / ‘mid-afternoon’ IN PROSPECT OF THE
ONCOMING DAY.
Therefore the <change> which <God allowed> and Himself worked
through the redemption of his People out of the Land of Darkness, was the
CHANGE IN DATING DAYS FROM SUNSET TO SUNSET instead of the old way, from sunrise
to sunrise. That change made many centuries before Christ at the exodus,
did not change the SACRIFICE from <3pm
on 14th> to <evening sacrifices
just after sunset>, but changed the EATING of the sacrifice in the night
after its sacrifice “on the FOURTEENTH”—Exodus 12:5,8,18, to the EATING of the
sacrifice in the night after its sacrifice “on the FIFTEENTH”, Exodus 12:46,51
= Leviticus 23:6 = Numbers 28:17; 33:3. Therefore my dear Reg, Christ’s
death was NOT <just after sunset on 15th>
but “the ninth hour” <3pm on 14th>
So that <<Joseph went to Pilot
AFTER sunset to beg the body of Christ Mat 27:57, Luke 23:50-54, Mark 15:42,
John 19:31>>
Reg:
the whole story from John
10:22 – John 21:1 this is Jesus last 3 months Gospel Gerard with what you
believe you cannot use one word of these texts John 10:22- 12:1 because you
believe the first 3 Gospel accounts which have that wrong in the spring from
Jerica to Jerusalem arriving on Sunday and the triumphant enter when the same
walk took place in the winter how could Christ come with a large crowd like the
first 3 Gospels have it and John having Jesus under threat of death sneaking
into Bethany on the Friday before
GE:
Reg, you amaze me! Are you really prepared to summarily reach verdict THREE
of the four Gospels <have that wrong>,
that Jesus <arriving on Sunday … from
Jerica to
Is it not possible that REG has it wrong?! It does not
matter which history—a winter or a spring history—any Gospel places the day
when Jesus visited Lazarus where he stayed in
This topic and discussion has consistently been about nothing else. I have
never given thought to these prior issues which you are assuming here. And I
can just wonder why not? Because they do not actually exist I would say. Because
they are not relevant from the very nature of the issues under discussion most
definitely! So why worry any further or rather in retrogression? Let the dead
bury their own dead; from John 12:1,12 Mark 11:1,11 Luke 19:22-44 on, it is all
and every day just about Jesus’ Last Passover Suffering.
Rubies:
I stand corrected - you
ALMOST apologised for your false statement that the Sabbath was never called “SHABBATH
SHABBATHON : “Gerhard wrote :#2220 “On the contrary, show where once the
Seventh Day Sabbath is being described ‘shabbath shabbathon’! There is nothing
of the sort”, is a serious and unpardonable ERROR OF GERHARD which I
herewith acknowledge, admit, apologise for and RETRACT. I wish I never
made this error PROVOKED by the MULTIPLE ERRORS of the FAKE Rubies.”
Oh too bad, there you go again! This was shaping up to be a passable attempt at
a rare apology, before you blamed someone else for YOUR mistake, & also
lied about imaginary “errors”!
Then of course there is your brutally honest post #2305: “All right Pioneer, love
your neighbour as yourself...if you can. I CANNOT.
“I CAN, ONLY HATE. THAT IS MY NATURE.”
We have all seen how true this admission is! Your carnal nature is apparent to
all. You demonstrate nothing of the spiritual nature of Christ. There is
something that is painfully obvious to evangelical members on this forum, and
similar sabbatarian forums everywhere. The legalistic doctrine of
SABBATH-KEEPING makes people CONCEITED, MEAN-MINDED, NASTY, SANCTIMONIOUS,
PROFANE, ANGRY, UNFORGIVING, ACCUSATORY, JUDGEMENTAL, SUPERCILIOUS, PROUD,
VENGEFUL, IRRATIONAL, UNLOVING, DISHONEST, SELF-RIGHTEOUS, HYPOCRITICAL,
COMPLACENT, SMUG, SPITEFUL.
GE:
Yes, and then there is
something that is painfully obvious to everyone whosoever, at similar forums
wherever whichever, the Sundayists’ counter apologetics against the Sabbath
which make them <conceited,
mean-minded, nasty, sanctimonious, profane, angry, unforgiving, accusatory,
judgemental, supercilious, proud, vengeful, irrational, unloving, dishonest,
self-righteous, hypocritical, complacent, smug, spiteful.>
Rubies:
Most certainly it is not
the sabbatarians who are “persecuted” though they are certainly rebuked as the
Bible commands. They never risk their lives on the front line for Jesus.
GE:
Aitsa!
Rubies:
Gerhard, you mock me for
saying that Topix frequently deletes many of my posts.(YOUR POST #2246.) You
call me a liar (YOUR POST #2246 and many others) and you falsely claim that I
have never posted certain things.
GE:
Rubies, please take the trouble
to go have a look where I called you a liar and WILL call you a liar every time
there, where, I have called you a liar, were it thousand times, times thousand.
There is, method, in my madness. Don't you worry!
Rubies:
You falsely claim that I
have never posted certain things. You falsely accuse me of having contradicted
myself or changed my mind. Well ponder on this. Just as a typical f'r'instance,
you can check the post numbers on page 110 for yourself to verify my honesty
and integrity, and contrast it with your bellowing scorn and false accusations.
Posts # 2286, 2287, 2297 & 2299 are now MISSING from page 110 of
Topix. (As of 28.4.14. For all I know, many more have disappeared since
then.) That is : 4 posts out of 20 on that page VANISHED. 20% of posts on
this page alone, DELETED. And every one of them was MINE.
These were all MY responses requested by other posters in ongoing discussions,
part of a coherent and logical progression of my carefully-considered replies
to Alex and Gerhard.
How is anyone supposed to conduct a rational discussion when Topix applies such
senseless, arbitrary censorship? Countless numbers of my diligently-composed
posts have vanished in this way, with no reason ever supplied. I am one of the
most honest, polite, well-educated, coherent, logical, circumspect and
considerate posters on this site. Also INTERESTING, which is one of Topix's
requirements.
GE:
Dear poor unfortunate bereaved Rubies, did I not tell you to use PATIENCE
with Topix SDA? I did, but you must have thought it’s just my peace-offering
cup of poisoned coffee …. Wiete gegooi die sjeef innie koffie? Koffie Anaanbrood? YOU
HAVE TO _WAIT_ BETWEEN POSTS! Or you will LOOSE posts --- like I have many
times. JUST RE-POST them! Why can’t you re-post them?! Shucks one would swear
_I_ let _your_ posts disappear, are you silly or not?!
Rubies:
The significance of this
is in the unique Torah readings required for that day of the year, according to
the Haftorah cycle during which specific portions of scripture must be read in
the synagogues so that the whole scriptures are completed regularly.
Once, the sacrifices for an Appointed Feast would have had to be added to the
Sabbath sacrifices, when they also fell on the 7th day.
The Greek phrase translated “high sabbath” in English, is actually “great the
day of-that the Sabbath.” This would be “Shabbat Hagadol”, THE Great Sabbath,
in Hebrew.
How appropriate that this annual day, when millions of Jews had gathered in
Jerusalem listening to prescribed portions of scripture read in the synagogues,
should fall on the day when the Messiah was “in the heart of the earth,” our
Passover Lamb.
Appropriately, the portion read specifically every year on Shabbat Hagadol, the
Sabbath during which Jesus' body lay in the tomb, is Malachi chapters 3 &
4. So millions of Jews on that auspicious day heard this messianic prophecy …”the
Messenger of the Covenant in whom you delight, behold, He is coming, says the
LORD of hosts. But who can endure the day of His coming, and who can stand when
He appears?” etc. Read the full passage to see how pertinent this day, this
Shabbat Hagadol, this “high sabbath” is to the Crucifixion narrative.
Whatever our own personal opinion, it is a fact that Shabbat Hagadol was
recorded in John 19:31, and it fell on the day AFTER the crucifixion,…
GE:
Yes, it is a fact that Shabbat Hagadol was recorded in John 19:31, and it
fell on the day AFTER the crucifixion— Yes, and don’t you forget it! Why when
Gerhard Ebersohn says it, do you DENY it is a fact that Shabbat Hagadol is
recorded in John 19:31, and that it fell on the day AFTER the
crucifixion?! Go READ John 19:31, “because it was / had become The
Preparation … the bodies on the crosses on the sabbath … because THAT DAY of
sabbath was the great day”—epei Paraskeueh ehn en tohi sabbatohi ehn gar
megaleh heh hehmera ekeinou tou sabbatou’!
Why do people say the crosses and bodies
had to be removed BEFORE the Sabbath while they say it WAS the Sabbath and the
crosses and bodies had yet to be removed?
Because they don’t understand or know what they are
talking --- just like you, faked Rubies!
<THAT day of the YEAR> says
Rubies
<THIS ANNUAL day> says Rubies
<an APPOINTED Feast> says
Rubies
<every YEAR> says Rubies,
was …
<the 7th day … sabbath>… says
Rubies,
<the Sabbath during which Jesus' body
lay in the tomb…> says Rubies. Comment superfluous …. I think you
ought to be relieved and thankful, Rubies, that not all your posts got placed.
Saves you some face come to think of it.
http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/seventh-day-adventist/TCMT0QQAME27RFJT4/p189
Rubies:
Whatever our own personal
opinion, it is a fact that Shabbat Hagadol was recorded in John 19:31, and it
fell on the day AFTER the crucifixion, which pinpoints the year of the Cross as
one in which 14 Nisan was also the 2nd Sabbath of the religious year.
There are not 2 days –”High Sabbath” & “Shabbat Hagadol.” They are one
&the same! And this day inevitably falls on Saturday, the 2nd Sabbath of
the year. Only in a proportion of years does the 2nd Sabbath happen to land on
14 Nisan, obviously. But John 19:31 is unequivocal evidence for the year and
the day of the crucifixion.
GE:
Again yes! Now come to terms with what you are saying yourself. But it has
nothing to do with <the year of the
Cross> or with a <year … in
which 14 Nisan was also the 2nd
[Seventh Day] Sabbath of the
religious year.>
Just the bare count of the days OF THE WEEK wherein
Abib 14 occurred shows the feast-sabbath of Abib 15 on the Sixth Day of the
week, shows it, the feast-sabbath of Abib 15 was the FOURTH <sabbath of the religious year.>
Note, says Rubies, <sabbath of the religious year>!
Abib 1 the Sixth Day on the new moon sabbath
(x1);
Abib 2 on the Seventh Day Sabbath (x2);
Abib 9 on the Seventh Day Sabbath (x3);
Abib 15 on the Sixth Day passover-sabbath (x4).
The next day, Abib 16, was the THIRD Sabbath of the religious year on the
Seventh Day Sabbath. It also was the FIFTH ‘sabbath’ in the new <religious year>.
So Abib 15 was the 2nd <religious /
appointed sabbath of the year> : “to its season”.
Rubies:
There is NO other day
designated “Sabbath”(Shabbath H7676) in scripture, except the Day of Atonement.
GE:
More apt ineptness cannot be imagined. It’s the same nonsense you try with
the passover-“Bone-Day”—uninformed denial.
Rubies:
Sabbath and the Day of
Atonement are also designated a Miqra Qodesh and a Shabbath Shabbathon. But the
reverse does not apply. Just because Trumpets, Tabernacles and Solemn Assembly
are designated both a “shabbathon” and a “miqra qodesh,” does not mean they are
a SABBATH.
GE:
You mean <a SABBATH> “the
day The Seventh Day Sabbath OF THE LORD GOD” and you have it right --- this
time. I say this time because every time elsewhere you violate this what you
teach yourself in this place. How? You say “sabbath” in Leviticus
23:11,15,16 <always>, is <a SABBATH>— “The Seventh Day Sabbath”.
Then you say, <15 & 21 Nisan, and
Shavuot, are all a “miqra qodesh” but they are neither a “shabbathon” nor a “shabbath”
(the Seventh Day). But Abib 15 was a “sabbath”appointed>
to its <religious season> while
the Seventh Day Sabbath was not.
“In the fourteenth day is the LORD’S passover (killed), but on the fifteenth
day is the feast UNTO THE LORD --- seven days ye must eat ulb; in the
first day ulb ye shall do NO SERVILE WORK”— that is, the first
day ulb shall be a “REST-DAY / SABBATH an holy convocation observed and
devoted unto the LORD”.
After Abib 14 “when they KILLED the passover”, came Abib 15 when they “ATE”—, ‘downed’
/ ‘rested’ / “buried” their passover.
Besides for their origin and chronological order, two things mainly AS SABBATH
days, distinguished both “the day The Seventh Day Sabbath OF THE LORD GOD” and
the “sabbath” of the passover:
1) On the religious or appointed “sabbath” of the “great day” of the passover
Abib 15, “no SERVILE (or ‘every day work’) was allowed, while the religious or
appointed works commanded on “that day”, “the sabbath of that day the great day”(John
19:31) of the passover Abib 15, were mandatory.
Its most important work was to KINDLE FIRE and—strictly forbidden on the
Sabbath OF THE LORD GOD—to “BURN WITH FIRE—return to dust—inter—, that which
remained” of the passover sacrifice, “the body of Jesus”.
2) On the “Sabbath of the LORD GOD” however, no work whatsoever was allowed
except the religious or appointed works that belonged to it, which were:
A) to have “holy convocation in all your houses” on it and
B) to “REMEMBER the Sabbath” for all the great works “OF THE LORD GOD” which “God,
having ENTERED INTO his own rest as God-in-his-own”, “on the Seventh Day
finished” (Hebrews 4:4,10) through Jesus Christ in Resurrection from the dead.
How “the DAY” of the passover “after the sabbath” in Leviticus 23:4-37 could
not be “the day after the SABBATH” of the passover, is above me. “The day after
the sabbath” in the passover-Scriptures Leviticus 23:4-37, was “the day after
the sabbath” of the PASSOVER!
I do not -- to the disappointment of any who might
disagree with me -- aim at or desire that they will agree with me. This post
was meant for those who think they are funny when they litter Topix' pages with
peanuts and cigarette stumps because they cannot disagree but like mentally
disturbed.
Rubies:
There is NO other day
designated “Sabbath” (Shabbath H7676) in scripture, except the Day of
Atonement. There is NO day designated “high sabbath” in the OT.
GE:
Ja. If your vision stops above your rolled up eyes against their sockets
under your own high brow. But in the Old Testament exactly “the fifteenth day
of the First Month”— “the sabbath” of the passover of Yahweh—is --- to the eye
of faith --- unequivocally designated “high sabbath” with the equivalent words “great
(‘gadol’) day” being employed instead. Jeremiah 30:6-10 Joel 2:11
“Because there are NO GRAVES in the land of Egypt” the bodies of the dead were “BURNED
WITH FIRE”, “wherefore thou (Moses for the LORD) hast thus dealt with us to
carry us forth out of Egypt that WE, should DIE—but Moses (for the LORD) said,
Fear ye not, stand still, and SEE THE SALVATION OF THE LORD which He
will show you TODAY.” “THIS DAY came ye out in the month Abib.” Exodus
14:11-13; 4. “By STRENGTH-OF-HAND—Jesus Christ—the LORD brought us out. God
surely will visit you [“My soul was not left in hell nor my flesh in death
would see corruption.”] God led the People ABOUT THE WAY OF THE WILDERNESS
[raised them up from the grave] of the
Said Rubies, <I SHOWED YOU in
Post #2237, that the exact phrase which you imagine refers exclusively to “Bone
Day,” is either “ETSEM HA'YOM HA'ZEH” or “ETSEM YOM”>
Alright, YOU showed me, <HA'YOM>.
I acknowledge and I say many thanks! Now I can quote Deuteronomy 31:21, (‘hay-yom’—Young’s)—
“When all
Read the remarkable, virtually identical, parallel of Moses’ DAY OF DEATH AND
BURIAL and
Now read carefully,
“THIS SONG”—Exodus 15!— “shall testify against them as a witness”— as a witness
to the True and Faithful Witness.
“This Song”, “the Song of Moses and of the Lamb”, “a Song for the Sabbath Day”,
“the Song of their Salvation”, is raised “as a witness against them for I know
their imagination which they go about”--- that it “is always, only evil”,
because “they imagine evil against the LORD and against His Anointed”.
“For … This Song … even THIS DAY TODAY”— “HA'YOM” [Rubies]—‘hay-y om’ [Young’s]—
<ETSEM HA'YOM HA'ZEH> [Rubies]—
“IN-THE-BONE-OF-DAY” Exodus 12:17 --- “this Song…” IT IS WRITTEN in Deuteronomy
31:21 “…the day BEFORE I have brought them INTO the Land which I sware.”
The LORD had brought Israel INTO the Land of the Salvation He had sworn unto
them on the Seventh Day Sabbath OF THE LORD GOD, wherefore the LORD COMMANDED
Israel to “REMEMBER the Sabbath to keep it sacred unto HIM” AND HIS SALVATION
--- JESUS CHRIST.
The LORD had brought
“The Selfsame Whole-Day Bone-Day”— ‘etsem yom’, was “the day BEFORE” …the
Sabbath! “That day of sabbath great day… was The Preparation… which is the
Fore-Sabbath” John 19:31 Mark 15:42.
Thank you very much, dear Rubies. You helped me discover one of the sweetest
and most pure of rubies I have ever found. Thank you very much!
Rubies:
There is only one time in
the English translation of the NT where the term “high day” is found.
GE:
Yes, if you look too ‘high’ into the back of your own “head” and cannot see
there are ‘head-days’, ‘higher’ than the other days in their particular
categories. Like in Exodus 12:15, “EVEN THE FIRST”—‘rishon’— “BEGINNING /
foremost / chief / HEAD, day”.
Yea, ‘ak…rishon…yom’ Abib 14—
“even the first, first day”:
<CERTAINLY the only (and) true : HIGH
day> “ye shall REMOVE LEAVEN” on and “KILL the passover”—
Exodus 12:6A Mark 14:12 Matthew 26:17 Luke 22:7 John 13:1-19:30— Abib 14;
Yea, as well as, ‘ak…rishon…yom’ Abib 15,
“the one and only outstanding beginning and HIGH day: (of)
“seven days NO LEAVEN shall be EATEN”— of
“seven days UNLEAVENED BREAD shall be EATEN”—
Adjectival Nomenclature for NONE other than the
“original / authentic / authoritative FIRST (and) HIGH DAY” in Exodus 12:15B—
Abib 15 in both Old and New Testaments!
.
Rubies:
There is only one time in
the English translation of the NT where the term “high day” is found. The
word “DAY” is not in the Greek, but was added by the KJV. All versions
seem to translate the Greek word MEGALE here as “high” when in all the 70 or
more other mentions, it is correctly translated “GREAT.” “That Sabbath day was
a high day” is a false and misleading translation. John 19:31 ought to
read, “For THAT DAY was THE GREAT SABBATH.” This would have prevented much
confusion and heresy. When the Jews refer to “special Sabbaths,” they mean a
7th day Sabbath on which another Appointed Feast Day also happens to fall in
that year.
GE:
I fail to see any <confusion>
that results from a proper, literal translation in John 19:31, “Because it was
The Preparation … for (in passover season) THAT day was sabbath-of-HIGH-day” of
the passover. That ‘high day sabbath’ or ‘high sabbath’ historically “was The
Preparation”, which for any unprejudiced and unbiased mind to understand
perfectly orderly is simple enough. “That day, (the) high sabbath (of
passover), was The Preparation”— “The Preparation which is the Fore-Sabbath”— the
Sixth Day of the week. It was it, not only by its seasonal coincidence,
but actually it was it because God FORE-ORDAINED “That Day…” [‘Bone-Day’
– ‘etsem yom’] “…high day sabbath” of passover, to fall on the Sixth Day
of the week at Jesus’ Last Passover. There is no <confusion> about it, the Seventh Day Sabbath according to God’s
Eternal Purpose had to follow on the Sixth Day of the week, “the Preparation”— read Matthew 27:62!
I can without effort think of three … nay, four, five … times in the OT
Scriptures where “God thus concerning the Seventh Day spake” when He was
speaking of also the Sixth Day of the week “The Preparation which is the
Fore-Sabbath”:
1) At the exodus;
2) At the giving of the Law;
3) At the giving of the manna;
4) At the institution of the passover in the Promised Land---viz., in
Deuteronomy 31. (post above)
In the year of our Lord’s Last Passover the “HIGH day sabbath” and “Selfsame
BONE-Day” of the Passover of Yahweh, was ON THE SIXTH DAY OF THE WEEK on the
fifteenth day of the First Month. For “God” concerning it, “thus spake”— like
He “concerning the Seventh Day spake”, no matter the heresy and much confusion
caused by Christians who parrot the Jews who, when they refer to <special Sabbaths, mean a 7th day Sabbath on which
another Appointed Feast Day also happens to fall>. DUH!
Rubies:
Appointed Feasts are NOT “Special
sabbaths” unless they fall ON the 7th day. The significance of this is in
the unique Torah readings required for that day of the year, according to the
Haftorah cycle during which specific portions of scripture must be read in the
synagogues so that the whole scriptures are completed regularly.
GE:
Rubies is the best example of the heresy and confusion she accuses the KJV
supposedly causes through its translation in John 19:31 with “that day was HIGH
day sabbath”. Here she illustrates her own heresy and confusion…
Says Rubies, <the unique Torah
readings … to the HAFTORAH CYCLE DURING WHICH specific portions of scripture
must be read in the SYNAGOGUES>
So which is it, readings from the Torah (Law, Scripture)? Or
is it <readings… unique… to the
haftorah cycle… read in the synagogues>?
These <readings… unique… to the
haftorah cycle… read in the synagogues> of course has no influence on <how the specific portions of scripture must
be read> or and understood. Also the fact they <must be read in the SYNAGOGUES> is meaningless and has no
influence on how they must be read in the synagogues.
That now for you is objectivity, not heresy or confusion, but uniquely and
methodically can guarantee that <the
whole scriptures are completed regularly> and are learned and understood
to the <regular significance required>
in the <unique haftorah cycle and
synagogues>. Have it all to yourself, dear Rubies; but it’s not for
me, thanks.
Rubies:
The sacrifices for an
Appointed Feast would have had to be added to the Sabbath sacrifices, when they
also fell on the 7th day. The Greek phrase translated “high sabbath” in
English, is actually “great the day of-that the Sabbath.” This would be “Shabbat
Hagadol”, THE Great Sabbath, in Hebrew. How appropriate that this annual day,
when millions of Jews had gathered in Jerusalem listening to prescribed
portions of scrip-ture read in the synagogues, should fall on the day when the
Messiah was “in the heart of the earth,” our Passover Lamb.
GE:
It is Rubies herself, again, declaring the very ‘sabbath’ SHE alleges <always is the SABBTH> Seventh Day of
the week, <this annual day> and
<the day when the Messiah was “in the
heart of the earth>. But let GE say it and it is his <ludicrous misconception> of
Scripture.
Jesus was “in the heart of the earth” in LIFE
suffering dying the death of death “Our Passover” and “Lamb of God” from that “My
HOUR is come”, “at the table”, “and it was night”, “and HE WENT OUT”, and
descended into the midst of the Sea of Dark Waters (Kedron), and walked into
the Olive Press (Gethsemane) where He let fall to the ground great drops of
LIFE’S blood and “the LORD fought for (Him)” --- then came there his betrayer
and contrabands like the claws of death took hold on Him and led Him into the
chambers of satanic sadism “in the heart of the earth”. And Jesus’ eternal
night under suffering the death of sin never ended while they crucified Him
until God-forsaken, “GOD LOOSED THE PAINS OF DEATH” BY THE “POWER OVER DEATH”.
Jesus had to both “lay down MY LIFE” and “TAKE UP AGAIN MY LIFE”. Then
began to END Jesus’ being “in the heart of the earth” ALIVE— “on the
first day when they KILLED the Passover”. “When evening had come since
The Preparation had begun which is the Fore-Sabbath, there came Joseph … and in
that first night also came to him, Nicodemus … and they PREPARED the body of
Jesus to be buried according to the principles of the Jews’ ETHICS”—, the
Passover of Yahweh Scriptures and Law of Moses, “to BURY”. “There
laid they the body of Jesus because the grave was ready by the time of the
Jews’ preparations to begin”, “mid-afternoon against the Sabbath”.
How ‘appropriate’ on this annual
day! Then began to END Jesus’ second day of having been “taken with and
carried out forth”, “in the heart of the earth” out of the land of
the living dead, “on the first (of) seven days ye shall eat (assimilate
/ unify with) unleavened bread”—bread of death.
“In the heart of the earth” IN THE GRAVE IN THE EARTH ROCK, “the third day”—HOW
APPROPRIATE!— “God …”, “IN SABBATH DAY’S FULLNESS in the
mid-inclining afternoon daylight against the First Day of the week”, “…
RAISED CHRIST FROM THE DEAD!”
Rubies:
There are not 2 days –”High
Sabbath” & “Shabbat Hagadol.” They are one &the same!
GE:
Correct. Why do you mention? Because you speak from both corners of your
mouth.
High Sabbath = Shabbat Hagadol = “great day of sabbath” = “sabbath of great day”…
no diffs —the passover’s was Abib 15 and at Jesus’ last passover Abib 15 was on
Friday.
That this day inevitably falls on ‘Saturday’ is nonsense! That this day <inevitably falls on…the 2nd Sabbath of the
year> if possible is even more ridiculous. But that <John 19:31 is unequivocal evidence for the
year…of the crucifixion> is not funny; it is plain haughty groundless
arrogance.
Alex:
Note erev pesach - Lord's
Passover / no meat eaten and pesach 1st day of unleavened bread. “
Rubies:
I note you have mentioned this before, the idea that that there was no lamb
eaten at the last Passover. I wonder where you get this idea? Surely not from
scripture, for Matthew, Mark & Luke all tell us that on the day the
Passover must be sacrificed, the disciples “prepared the Passover,” which
necessarily means, they sacrificed their own Passover lamb.
GE:
That’s what she, says. She
is wrong. Not from Scripture, Matthew, Mark or Luke.
Rubies:
Of course, there is no
lamb eaten at Passover NOW, since 70 AD, but in Jesus' day, it was obligatory
for all Israelites to eat the lamb. If they were unclean or absent on the first
Passover in Nisan, then they were obliged to attend the second Passover in
Iyyar. There was no provision for squeamish vegetarians! If you wanted the
angel of death to pass over your house, you must kill the lamb by sunset on
14th Nisan and eat the lamb after sunset on the night of 15th Nisan. Failing to
eat the Passover lamb was a sin for which you would be cut off from
I have also seen others claim that at the time of the Cross, there was only a
single token lamb killed at Passover for the entire nation.
Then you have Reg's wacky idea that the priests spent several days prior to the
Passover, slaughtering all the lambs for the feast themselves, when he
writes,
“Those lambs would have been dead for days.”
This of course is in direct denial of the Lord's command that the Passover
lambs must ALL be sacrificed late afternoon on 14 Nisan, eaten on the night of
15 Nisan, and that NONE of the sacrifice was to be allowed to remain to the morning
after it was killed.
There is also Gerhard's absurd theory that the Israelites hung about for an
entire day to bury the remains of the lamb on the afternoon of the 15th. See
the strange heresies and private interpretations that proliferate when the simple
meaning of the scripture is confused and disordered?
GE:
You mentioned Reg’s post. You do not mention my post. Now give my post or
and quote it! YOU CANNOT BECAUSE YOU’RE A LIAR. My theory is not that the
Israelites hung about for an entire day to bury the remains of the lamb on the
afternoon of the 15th.
The SCRIPTURES state that the Israelites after they the night before, before
midnight, had eaten the first “unleavened bread with the flesh”, “next morning
burned with fire that which remained” of the sacrifice. Exodus 12:8,9. Then, “THAT
SELFSAME WHOLE DAY BONE-DAY”, the Israelites “with all their might” moved from
Rameses to Succot where they before sunset “baked unleavened cakes” THEN MOVED
ON and “brought (it) forth out of Egypt … because they were THRUST OUT of Egypt”—by
God! Exodus 12:37,39. Nothing of <hung
about for an entire day to bury the remains of the lamb on the afternoon of the
15th> which is the faked Rubies’ grotesque LIE not against me, but
against God’s truth of Jesus’ Christ’s DAY OF BURIAL ON “BONE-DAY” the 15th.
Exodus 12:51.
Shameless brainwashed parrot Rubies! My parrot has been taught by myself to
swear and fight; YOU, have been taught TO LIE AND LIE DOWN like a lame
pretending parrot.
Alex:
The Lords Passover Day was on the 14th and the
celebration of the Feast of Unleavened Bread on Passover night. Christ was
alive for the first on the 14th hence the Last Supper but was buried by the
time of the Feast on the 15th.
http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/seventh-day-adventist/TCMT0QQAME27RFJT4/p190
Rubies:
Exo 12:6 “You shall keep
it until the 14th day of this month,
when the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel
shall kill their lambs at twilight.… 8 They shall eat the flesh that night,
roasted on the fire; with unleavened bread and bitter herbs they shall eat it.…
10 And you shall LET NONE OF IT REMAIN UNTIL THE MORNING; anything that remains
until the morning you shall burn. “
Exo 34:25 “You shall not offer the blood of my sacrifice with anything
leavened, or let the sacrifice of the Feast of the Passover remain until the
morning. “
Is this “meatless Passover” some COG doctrine?
Josephus is our best source of info, and he tells us that at one of the final
Passovers before the Temple was destroyed (which of course the Cross Passover
was NOT), there were 256,500 lambs slaughtered to feed about 3 million Jews who
had gathered in Jerusalem from all the countries to which they had been
scattered.(Josephus, Wars of the Jews, Book 6 Chapter 9:3.) This was the means
by which the Romans were able to kill so many of them, a ghastly irony indeed.
Having rejected the Passover Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world,
the Jews were shut up in a siege of
GE:
Josephus may be YOUR best source of info. I prefer not to
consult him.
Rubies:
Everything was completed
on the same day of death, within the space of less than 3 hours. [Acts 5:6,7.] In
that stony land they could not dig a hole 6 feet deep, then put a coffin into
it and cover it over as we do. They first washed the body, then wrapped it up
in a linen shroud [Matt 27:59], A separate cloth was placed over the head
and face [John 20:7]. All was covered in many pounds of fragrant spices, then
bound up in linen. [Luke 24:12; John 11:44; 20:5,6.] The body was laid on
a stone bench inside the tomb. [Mark 16:5; Luke 23:55; John 20:12.]
All tombs had numerous shelves that could hold many bodies while they were
decaying. [Luke 23:53; John 19:41; John 20:12.] The entrance to the tomb
was sealed up with a stone to prevent anything getting in or out. [Mark
15:46.] Each body was left there for about a year until the soft tissues
had decomposed. Then the dry bones were removed, and placed in a small stone or
wooden box. [Exodus 13:9.] This was a way of saving precious land.
GE:
Joseph buried Jesus’ body is his new sepulchre hewn out of solid rock
wherein no one was buried before.
.
Rubies:
Unoccupied tombs were
whitewashed every year before the Feasts, to let travellers know that they were
available for sleeping in on their journey to
GE:
If the graves had no dead bodies or bones in them,
Jesus did not make a very relevant reference to the white washed graves.
Rubies
Budget motels. So Jesus being “wrapped in cloth” and
spices and laid on the bench in the tomb, WAS the complete burial. The
women intended to bring extra spices to cover Him after the Sabbath – in
addition to the 75 or 100 lbs that Nicodemus had already supplied. This was
their offering to the Lord, much as we might place flowers on a grave today.
But Jesus HAD been “properly buried” and nobody intended to remove His body and
put it in a hole in the ground.
GE:
Yes, Everything was completed on the same day from that Joseph appeared on
the scene—the same day that as soon as it had started Joseph started to
initiate undertaking to bury the body of Jesus until he three hours before the
Sabbath, had closed the grave. All within the confines of the single “Selfsame
day BONE-Day”-of-BURIAL! Not <on the
same day of death> but all on the one day after death.
Then you shade your story as if the <complete burial>
was <conducted and everything was
completed> inside the sepulchre! Which you attempt to do to support the
false impression which you wish to create about the true events of “that day”
the fifteenth day of the First Month.
You ascribe the Law’s prescriptions for the fifteenth to the fourteenth; you
see yourself doing it; yet you will not acknowledge it. And that is how the
whole falsity of a one day crucifixion, death AND burial, is concocted and
maintained and has been popularised and promoted to worship status.
Man's burial is the
utmost depth of his deserved humiliation.
Christ’s Burial was the utmost depth of his deserved Exaltation. The first planes to the height of His
Exaltation at the right hand of God in heavenly Glory of His Majesty scaled,
were Christ’s Burial and Interment. God not after Jesus died, forsook
Him nor in death or grave, ceased vigil over his body. As Jesus was victorious
in suffering of our death, so was God victorious in suffering of Jesus’
death. “For David speaketh concerning Him, I foresaw the LORD always
before my face, for He is on my right hand, that I shall not be moved:…”
Exodus 24:10 KJV: “They saw the God of Israel and under his
feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were
the body of heaven NAS: as clear as the sky itself. INT: paved of sapphire itself as the
sky clear HEB: לִבְנַ֣ת
הַסַּפִּ֔יר וּכְעֶ֥צֶם הַשָּׁמַ֖יִם
לָטֹֽהַר׃
Revelation 15:2-4; 21:18,19. Isaiah
54:9-11. “So also is the Resurrection of The Dead … RAISED IN GLORY … RAISED IN
POWER … Sown a natural / terrestrial body the Last Man was made / raised a
Spiritual Body … a quickening Spirit … the Lord from heaven. … then (was)
brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in Victory.”
Cf. 2Corinthians 3:17,18 “… from (the) glory [of his Grave] to (the) glory…” of
His Resurrection.
Jesus foresaw He would not suffer the fate of the dead as Rubies described
above that the flesh of the dead would corrupt away in their graves and that in
time their bones would be disturbed and moved away. Jesus foresaw it would not
happen with his body of flesh and bone. Jesus’ day of burial would be
the day his bones would be moved with his body— “his head with his legs—no
bone of his broken or severed—with the purtenance thereof”, “once for
all”, “without blemish”, “without spot or wrinkle”, to await
his Resurrection from the dead and mortality and the corruptible.
Foresaw Christ, “I shall not be moved: Therefore did my heart rejoice … also
my FLESH shall rest in hope because Thou wilt not leave my soul in hell,
neither wilt thou suffer Thine Holy One to see CORRUPTION. “
Rubies:
I think you will find,
trying to decipher GE's tangled posts, that he advocates a Thursday Cross, that
they all went home leaving Jesus hanging on the cross all night, then came back
the next day and conducted a full-blown procession and day-long fuenral. Seems
it was quite some party. Surprising that there is nothing about it in the
Bible, really.
GE:
Quoting Rubies, <they all went
home leaving Jesus hanging on the cross all night, then came back the next day>!
God not only hears; He also reads! It’s not surprising that there is nothing
about it in the Bible, really. Shows the sad state of your knowledge of both
the Bible and my posts both of which clearly you have not read—no one can have
read both and lie that much about both. If you have read my posts it would be
as good as having read the Scriptures brcause my posts virtually always,
contain virtually nothing than what is in the Bible, really.
Rubies:
The idea that that there
was no lamb eaten at the last Passover. I wonder where you get this idea?
Surely not from scripture, for Matthew, Mark & Luke all tell us that
on the day the Passover must be sacrificed, the disciples “prepared the
Passover,” which necessarily means, they sacrificed their own Passover lamb.
.
GE:
What do you mean by the
last Passover? All post-Egypt passovers had TWO meals, the first, in the
night first halve of the fourteenth day of the First Month a LEAVENED meal; and
the second in the night first halve on the fifteenth day of the First Month an
UNLEAVENED meal. Source of information? None other than God’s Written Word The
New Testament Gospel Story of Our Passover, the Son of God, Jesus Christ.
No good for faked Rubies.
If you mean by the last Passover the ‘Last Supper’, ‘The Last Supper’ was the
first passover meal—JESUS’ New Testament new, Christian, institution of “The
Lord’s Supper”— as you Rubies know but pretend was the first passover’s only meal. Here
you are the best of Roman Catholics arguing for two passover’s sacrifices,
the first on the thirteenth day of the First Month and the next one on the
fourteenth day of the First Month. ANATHEMA!
So you openly LIE again, telling us Matthew, Mark & Luke all tell us that
on the day the Passover must be sacrificed, the disciples “prepared the
Passover”, which necessarily means, they sacrificed their own Passover lamb. RUBBISH!
Matthew, just like Mark just like Luke all tell us that on the day the Passover
would like always had to be sacrificed—Imperative in Luke and Imperfect in Mark
and Matthew, the disciples “prepared”, “SO THAT”—Subjunctive or Future
Subjunctively— the passover could be eaten BY THE JEWS, after sunset that
day.
Which did not happen because 1) NO ONE COULD MOVE so thick was the
darkness exactly the time of day everybody would have been busy with their
passover drills under normal circumstances on the day they KILLED the
passover. And which did not happen because 2) of all the Supernatural,
Predestined, Divine upsetting of all official temple and sacrificial services
on That Day.
The Jews did not eat the passover in that first night of ULB because 3) Jesus
was THE END OF THE LAW and the Fulfilment of all Types and Prophecies “concerning
the Christ” IN HIMSELF. The last passover of Jesus Christ the Lamb of God
Our Passover was the Passover of Yahweh. Jesus had departed on his long journey
to another Kingdom, “The Kingdom of God”–”The Kingdom of My Father”, “To
prepare a place for you”—from which He would after a short while “IN THREE DAYS”,
“ON THE SABBATH”, come back again, and his disciples would be where He would be:
“in the Kingdom of God’s Dear Son”, “The Kingdom of LIGHT.” And they, and Jesus
would “in the Kingdom of God again with you eat of the Bread, and again with
you, drink of the Wine that He “GAVE THEM AND SAID, EAT, THIS IS MY BODY; AND
DRINK, THIS IS MY BLOOD”. IN THIS Jesus fulfilled the Whole-Day BONE-DAY
of the Passover of Yahweh, IN THAT He fulfilled BOTH the fourteenth day of the
First Month and the fifteenth day of the First Month, IN ONE DAY—, IN “THE
GREAT AND TERRIBLE DAY OF THE LORD”—, yea, indeed in that He fulfilled “THE
GREAT AND TERRIBLE DAY OF THE LORD”: “IN THREE DAYS”—, the “three days” of “three
days and three nights” in their God-given and therefore eschatological
IMPERATIVE WHOLE AND WHOLENESS [Lohmeyer] fulfilled in the “APPOINTED”, “GREAT
AND TERRIBLE DAY OF THE LORD”.
Rubies:
Luk 24:34 saying, “The
Lord has risen indeed, and has appeared to Simon!” Luk 24:36 As they were
talking about these things, Jesus himself stood among them, and said to
them, “Peace to you!” John tells us that this day was still the same day, the
THIRD DAY, SUNDAY, in the evening (which is NOT “after sunset”):
Joh 20:18 MARY MAGDALENE went and announced to the disciples, “I have seen the
Lord”—and that he had said these things to her. 19 ON THE EVENING {opsios} of
THAT DAY, the FIRST DAY of the week, the doors being locked where the
disciples were for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said
to them, “Peace be with you.”
GE:
The too clever faked Rubies again! Hahaha you think everything you LIE will
pass for truth! As I said before, God does not only listen and hear you speak
lies; He READS and pays ATTENTION to your lies. THIS lie of yours could not
elude me; how do you think it is going to get past God? You act like a fearless
unbeliever and atheist would.
Now I can see why John wrote in Revelation 22:18, “For
I
testify unto every man that heareth the Words of the
Prophecy of this book [concerning “the Everlasting Gospel” of Jesus Christ]: If
any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that
were written in this book : And if any man shall take away from the words of
this book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the Book of
Life.” I have always wondered why. Now I can see why: It is because God is not
a God of confusion. That is why God shall take people’s names out of the Book
of Life if they will take away or add to his written Word.
Just read the faked Rubies, <Luk 24:36
As they were talking about these things, Jesus himself stood among them,
and said to them, “Peace to you!” John tells us that this day was still the
same day, the THIRD DAY, SUNDAY”.> If this were what John tells us, why
did he not write it to his own generation?! Why did John not write anything
near? Because he did not tell, or write, anything near, to anyone near or far. Rubies
is blatantly taunting God as He most definitely did, make it clear what will
happen to anyone who added to or took away from his Word! Meantime all this
brazen confusion is hailed for worship of God; but in reality it is open
worship of Sunday.
LomaLindaProf:
Jou ou Ka..r poephol! Rubies and Greg know what they
are talking about, but Gehard is a sore loooooser! Very un-Christlike like the
bush-dwellers of
Reg:
Hello Gerard by your post you are saying you only
believe parts of the bible that John 10:22-12:11 is out numbered 3 to 1 with
the first 3 gospels when you can tell me you accept God’s 10C of how we are to
live in harmony with God and our fellow man you will know the truth and it will
set you free to know it then you will be able to discuss truth and you will be
led by the Holy Spirit your comments to others give you away Jesus NEVER
SPOKE LIKE YOU brother if your aiming at eternal life read MT 6:33 But
seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things
shall be added unto you.
GE:
A little Greek erudition may be appropriate …
Quoting Rubies: <ON THE EVENING
{opsios}>
In Rubies’ English we see a Dative Noun with Article rendering one ‘Greek’, ‘word’,
<{opsios}>.
<opsios> is a Greek word; but
not a Noun—not EVENING, not THE EVENING, not ON THE EVENING, not a DATIVE.
Because <opsios> is not a Noun,
but an Adverb.
From <opsios> comes the
Adjective ‘ópsimos’, in James 5:7 “until he receives the early and the late
rain”—‘héohs lábehi próïmon kai ópsimon (huetós)—Singular Masculine Accusative.
Therefore, If John tells us that this day was still the same day, the
THIRD DAY, SUNDAY,… THAT DAY, the FIRST DAY of the week—<day>, six
times!, the <Greek word> would
have been,
A) an Adjective not an Adverb, <opsios>;
and it would have been,
B) Feminine not Masculine <opsios>;
and it would have been,
C) Dative not Nominative <opsios>.
It would have been --- NOT Rubies’ contraption, <opsios>!
So Rubies again shows and proves she does not know what she is talking, never
mind all the other irrelevancies she depends on and all the contradictions she
creates through her anachronistic failed attempt at synchronising Luke 24 and
John 20.
Rubies:
OPSIOS means, “afternoon
(early evening) or nightfall (later evening).” That is from Strong's
dictionary, which YOU say is correct. NOT “after midnight” as you would have it
by this time, Reg. Your crank theory Reg, says that Mary Magdalene met the
risen Jesus after sunset on Satuirday night. But the Word of God tells you that
is a LIE.
GE:
You both lie. Rubies and Reg. And you lie, Rubies, that <OPSIOS means, “afternoon (early evening) or
nightfall (later evening)> in Strong's dictionary!
First quote Strong’s verbatim, letter for letter here—‘copied & pasted’—,
that we all can read Strong’s and not Rubies’ faked rubies. This mess of
yours is purposely so messed up that it should be unanswerable. You
disqualified yourself as qualified for this conversation. But there it
stands written in John itself, the ONLY authority in this matter. And it does
not stand written <{OPSIOS}>
like you - lying Rubies - typed it here. John 19:20 wrote, “Being then /
therefore ‘o-p-s-i-a-s’—with an ‘-a-‘, not an o. O yes, it makes a big
difference! It makes the difference between ‘afternoon’(or
‘nightfall’)—‘opsi-o-s’—‘late’ in the day, and “the evening”—‘opsi-a-s’ in John
19:20—, which is the same difference between “it BEING EVENING with
reference to that day the First Day of the week” in John 20:19, and “it
being TOWARD evening the day far spent (on the First Day of the week)” in Luke
24:29.
Rubies:
Reg, you tell us that Mary
Magdalene saw Jesus AFTER sunset on Saturday night, BEFORE the men walked to
Emmaus. But the men travelling to Emmaus said the women had discovered the tomb
empty and Jesus risen, EARLY THAT SAME MORNING, which according to you ought to
be SATURDAY MORNING.
GE:
Where does it say in Luke
24 that <the women had discovered …
Jesus risen>? You both are tempting God. Expert theologians and you
still cannot understand the simplest biblical concepts, yet you imagine that
you alone, of all the billions who ever lived, understand the chronology of
Jesus’ Last Passover correctly. What is more, you both believe that your
mess of lies is the saving Gospel. That means you are preaching “A DIFFERENT
GOSPEL” —the traditions and commandments of men and inspiring devils.
Rubies:
Joh 20:1 Now ON THE FIRST
DAY OF THE WEEK MARY MAGDALENE came to the tomb early, {proi} while it was
still dark, and saw that the stone had been taken away from the tomb. 2 So she
ran and went to Simon Peter and the other disciple, the one whom Jesus loved,
and said to them, “They have taken the Lord out of the tomb, and we do not know
where they have laid him.”
“While it was STILL dark” means, as it was dawning after the night. NOT “as it
was getting darker after daylight.” The word “early” is PROI, which means, “early
in the morning; dawn; the daybreak watch.” Put that in your Newberry KJV and
smoke it.
GE:
Rubies’ first lie, here, Joh 20:1 <<Now on the First Day of the week Mary Magdalene came to the tomb …
early, {proi} while it was still dark>>.
The truth, here, John 20:1, “Now on the First Day of the week Mary Magdalene
comes EARLY OF DARK STILL BEING—‘prohï skotias eti ousehs’—to the tomb”--- not
just early, <{proi}>. It is no
truth if it is not the WHOLE truth.
Rubies’ second lie, here, <ON THE
FIRST DAY … early, {proi} while it was still dark.> Truth is, here, “on
the First Day being early of dark still”— not <on the First Day early, {proi}>, but “dark / darkness / night
BEING EARLY STILL”.
Rubies’ third lie, here, <early, {proi}
while it was still dark ... as it was dawning after the night>.
Truth here, again is, “on the First Day being early dark still”—before, the
rest of the night … as it was dusk before—IN FACT, as it was getting darker,
after, daylight!
Rubies’ fourth lie, here, is, <early, {proi}
while … it was STILL dark>. Truth here, again, is, “on the First Day
being still EARLY dark”— “STILL (the) early OF dark”.
Rubies’ fifth lie, here, <early, {proi}
while it was STILL dark>.
Truth here, again is, “on the First Day being still EARLY dark”— “being
still (the) EARLY, OF, dark”— “being still (the) early (evening) of the NIGHT /
dark / darkness”.
Rubies’ sixth lie, here, is, <The word
“early” is PROI, which means, “early in the morning; dawn; the daybreak watch.”
Put that in your Newberry KJV and smoke it.>
The truth here, is, it is NOT the WORD <early”…
proi> here; it is the PHRASE or CLAUSE, ‘prohï skotias eti ousehs’— “(the)
early of dark still being”… which means just what it literally spells –, no
twisting or cutting out or adding to just what it says—which does NOT mean
early in the morning; dawn; the daybreak watch. Put that in your smoked
Rubies’ brains and don’t fake it!
Rubies:
Reg, you tell us that Mary
Magdalene saw Jesus AFTER sunset on Saturday night, BEFORE the men walked to
Emmaus. But the men travelling to Emmaus said the women had discovered the tomb
empty and Jesus risen, EARLY THAT SAME MORNING, which according to you ought to
be SATURDAY MORNING.
GE:
Thus do true chums in fraud stick together in their lying—their lying never
is the same; the one’s lying always gives away the lies and lying of the other
and his own. VERY EFFECTIVE spying and double-crossing Crossites’
lies! Rubies ALSO maintains that John 20:1 tell(s) us that Mary Magdalene
saw Jesus—, only not AFTER sunset on Saturday night, but BEFORE sunrise
SATURDAY MORNING.
It’s like the two thieves who shared their bottle of stolen sherry. Said the
one to the other, You choose first which halve you want. I want the top halve,
said his mate. That’s fine with me, said the one, But now it’s my turn to
choose, and I choose to drink first.
Reg chose Mary saw Jesus the first halve of night while Rubies chose she saw
Him the last halve of night.
But John chose Mary not at all saw Jesus the whole of night!
Because John tells us that Mary saw the STONE cast away from the tomb “while still
being early of dark (that night)”; not that she saw Jesus at all! Then
John again tells us that Mary saw Jesus while thinking she saw the gardener in
the garden—which Mark tells us, was—, “early on the First Day of the week” at
sunrise AFTER the whole of that night.
Rubies:
I SHOWED YOU that the
exact phrase which you imagine refers exclusively to “Bone Day,” is either “ETSEM
HA'YOM HA'ZEH” or “ETSEM YOM,” and it is used EIGHTEEN TIMES, for many
different days of the year, none of which is “Bone Day.”
GE:
I, told you – and everybody everywhere else IN THE WHOLE WORLD at any time
ever else, that “ETSEM YOM” is used EIGHTEEN TIMES. You informed me, on
NOTHING concerning the “bone-day” in the Scriptures, EVER, you empty headed
Queen posing King of Toads hypocrite!
Now what is it after all that you SHOWED me, if you showed me exactly what I
showed you, that “ETSEM HA'YOM HA'ZEH” or “ETSEM YOM” is used EIGHTEEN
TIMES?!
Vanity! Vanity which you showed me FALSELY claiming it <is used for many different days of the year, none of which is “Bone Day.”>
While YOU, write, <<“ETSEM YOM,”
and it is used EIGHTEEN TIMES>> … <ETSEM YOM>— <“Bone Day”>—
‘ETSEM’— Bone : ‘YOM’— Day!?
Rubies:
Alex, as you requested. I
agree with you about the misleading translation “on the first day of unleavened
bread, which technically should read, “before unleavened bread.” But also let
us remember that in the vernacular, “Pesach” and “Azumon” had both come to be
interchangeable terms referring to the entire 8 days from 14 – 21 Nisan.
GE:
The misleading about the <misleading
translation “on the first day of unleavened bread”>, is not that it <technically should read, “before unleavened
bread”>. That is sheer faked Rubies’ nonsense. The misleading about
the misleading translation “on the first day of unleavened bread”, is that
there are no words ‘day’, ‘bread’, or, ‘feast’, as found in the KJV in Mark
14:12 and Matthew 26:17—, Like I have explained in this discussion more than
once before.
The correct translation translates only what is written in these texts, and
that is, that it was “on the first day when they REMOVED LEAVEN AND KILLED
the passover”. Which things were on and were one, and the same day the fourteenth
day of the First Month when “they kept passover” which was “on the fourteenth
day” per se Exodus 12:5 Leviticus 23:6 et al, AS
There is therefore no indication of, or reference to, or connection with, or
provocation for, that Mark 14:12 and Matthew 26:17 <technically should read, “before unleavened bread”>.
But HISTORICALLY, it is unambiguous and undeniable
that these texts, Mark 14:12 Matthew 26:17 Luke 22:7 IN PASSOVER SEQUENCE fell “on
the day BEFORE the Feast” John 13:1, “in the same night in which He was
betrayed (and in which) He took bread”, 1Corinthians 11:23. Because these
texts Mark 14:12 Matthew 26:17 Luke 22:7 John 13:1 1Corinthians 11:23,
strictly—i.e., <technically>—i.e.,
stripped of bias, historically and numerically were the day <before unleavened bread>, and
referred to it. In this sense, You Rubies, are dead right—but DEAD, right!
.
http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/seventh-day-adventist/TCMT0QQAME27RFJT4/p191
GE:
My post 4011 above, http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/seventh-d... herewith cancelled and replaced!
Basic arithmetic the Rubies way, yea. As follows :
<…the day when … the new year's …
Wave-sheaf was reaped … was … SUNDAY. The DAY AFTER THE SABBATH.>
But the SABBATH the Sabbath of the week which not at all except by
unconditional coincidence occurred on the SAME DAY as the new year's [day when
the] new year's Wave-sheaf was reaped.”
The Wave sheaf was reaped, Leviticus 23:21,22 tells, when
“Ye shall proclaim on the BONE-DAY … WHEN YE REAP (that) thou shalt
not make clean riddance of the corners of thy field”.
“Ye shall REAP the harvest, THEN ye shall BRING a sheaf of the firstfruits
to the priest.”
“On that day on which you REAP the sheaf, on that day you shall BRING the
sheaf.”
“And / then on the day after the sabbath”—Leviticus 23:10,11—
“after the sabbath” after you shall have reaped and after you shall have
brought the wave sheaf / first sheaf on:— “the priest shall wave it
(the first sheaf / the wave sheaf) before the LORD”.
Now what day came before the passover-sabbath?
The day the first sheaf was REAPED AND BROUGHT on!
Was that not the day they killed the sacrifice? It
was!
Rubies:
IT WAS NOT!!! THERE IS NO
'BONE-DAY'!!! You cannot
read or understand or write plain English, and you have no idea what you are
talking about. The Wave-sheaf was reaped on the first day of the week, the day
following the Sabbath which fell during the week of Unleavened Bread ...
whether that Sabbath fell on the 15th, 16th, 17th, 18th, 19th, 20th or 21st.
Alex:
GE I have to agree with Rubies here - there is no BONE
DAY - selfsame means “in that very day”
GE:
If there is no “BONE-DAY” in the Scriptures, then you,
go
and DELETE them where they are WRITTEN: 'etsem yom'—“bone-day”,
at least 20 times at least 12 of which the EXCLUSIVE “WHOLE-DAY BONE-DAY THAT
SELFSAME DAY” OF THE PASSOVER OF YAHWEH.
Just keep in mind my friend, you, are going to have to SCRATCH THEM TROUGH and
erase them out of THE PASSOVER OF YAHWEH. Alright now, go ahead, and make note
of which WORDS OF GOD you, got rid of! Which day did they kill the passover /
offering / sacrifice on? “On the fourteenth day of the First Month”! What was
the fourteenth day of the First Month’s, passover- name? “The BONE DAY ye
have brought an offering / made a sacrifice / kept the passover unto your God.”
Leviticus 23:14.
What day came before the day Abib 16 that the priest waved the first sheaf on?...
“…the sabbath”— “that day great day of sabbath” of the passover Abib15.
And before it:—
:21 “YE, shall…
“ye shall PROCLAIM” it on the
“BONE-DAY”…
:22 “…Bone-Day WHEN YE REAP”…
:14 “the selfsame BONE DAY… (that) it may be
an holy convocation to you and (that) ye shall
“do no servile work therein—a
“STATUTE throughout your generations.”
BOTH 14 and 15 Abib were “the selfsame BONE-DAY” in Exodus 12 and in Leviticus
are separated and DATED respectively Abib 14 and 15.
God “carried (them) out on everlasting arms”; “Thou in Thy Mercy has led forth
the people … Thy Right Hand, O LORD, is become Glorious in Power”; Exodus
12:13,6. His “Right Hand”— “Mighty Hand” Deuteronomy 5:15 et al brought God’s
People out.
So “the sabbath” on which the first sheaf for one day rested over for to be
waved on the day after it, was ALSO DATED “TO ITS SEASON” in Leviticus the same
as “the selfsame BONE-DAY” in Exodus 12— “the very day” on which Israel the
typical first sheaf of “JOSEPH”—was “BROUGHT FORTH OUT [and rested from slave
labour] on the fifteenth day of the First Month”.
“Thus saith the LORD” in his WORD the Holy Scriptures of
true and universal Christiandom:— “three days”:—
1) “the very first day removed leaven and killed the
passover” Abib 14;
2) “the next day”— “the first day seven days
unleavened bread … the sabbath”, “that day sabbath great day” of the passover
Abib 15 the first sheaf rested over for to be waved the next day;
3) “And on the day after the sabbath”- after “great day” of passover, the
priest shall wave the first sheaf:— on Abib 16 which “TO ITS SEASON, YE, shall
PROCLAIM”.
Israel / Joseph was not “brought forth out” on the
Sabbath Day of the creation week, but on the day before the Sabbath Day of the
creation week—the same day that Joseph buried the body of Jesus on— not on “the
day The Seventh Day Sabbath OF THE LORD GOD”! Not after “the day The Seventh
Day Sabbath OF THE LORD GOD” on SUNDAY! But
concerning the Seventh Day had always spoken.”
Alex:
The Lords Passover Day was
on the 14th and the celebration of the Feast of Unleavened Bread on Passover
night. Christ was alive for the first on the 14th hence the Last Supper but was
buried by the time of the Feast on the 15th.
GE:
First part, right! Second
part, wrong, and, AGAINST SCRIPTURE.
Christ was dead, by the time of the Feast on the 15th was to start or in fact “when
evening had come already … and since it was the Preparation and because that
day was great day of sabbath (of the passover), the Jews asked Pilate to get
the bodies removed on (that) sabbath (of the passover).” Mark 15:42 and
John 19:31.
Christ was finished buried, John 19:42, “by the
time of the Jews’ preparations to start”—‘dia tehn paraskeuehn tou
Ioudaiohn’; “mid-afternoon (on the 15th) the (prospective) Sabbath
… according to the (Fourth) Commandment … nearing”. Luke 23:54.
Alex, the evening came in between after
Jesus had died and everybody had fled away and left Him forlorn on the cross
until Joseph arrived after the Jews had asked Pilate to have the crosses and
bodies removed and Joseph at last “IN THE FIRST NIGHT” of ulb could BEGIN his
undertaking to bury Jesus.
Joseph finished to bury according to the Law and closed the grave “mid-afternoon
on that day”—‘Friday’, and the TWO Marys could go home to prepare their spices
and for the Sabbath on which they “began to rest according to the Law”, “from
evening”.
Alex, no Gospel tells anything different than the others, and what the Gospels
all four of them without any discrepancies between the four of them tell, is
what you see here quoted.
Jesus’ Passover of Yahweh must be your point of view into the past; not v.v..
But you can use the first passover as point of view on Jesus’ Last Passover; it
will make NO DIFFERENCE. It’s all the same. He was NOT killed and buried the same day. I know the Scriptures
you may try to use to contradict the fact. Bring them here, so we may search
them as we are instructed to do as CHRISTIANS. YOU, will see yourself, they
teach 1)”BURIED THE NEXT DAY” and 2) “STAY THE NIGHT on the tree (but) NOT ALL
NIGHT”, and 3) “REMOVE BEFORE DAYLIGHT”—not remove before sunset as alleged without
ANY grounds!
Alex:
I don't see a problem.
GE:
I am sure GOD sees a BIG problem here. Friday
crossites and Wednesday crossites compete who can be the most holy haughtiest
omniscient, right here.
Rubies:
Nicodemus was the man who “first came to JESUS by
night”
GE:
… Rubies herself again the lying deceiver with
deliberate falsehoods in mind, part quoting John 19:39 while insidiously
fraudulently coupling John 19:39 to John 7:50!
Proof!: It stands written in John 19:39, “Nicodemus
who came to him the first night”--- NOT IN John 7:50!
Does it say in John 7:50, “Nicodemus who came to him THE FIRST NIGHT”? No!
Was Nicodemus the first man who came to Jesus by
night? What about the three wise men who came to Jesus by night the night He
was born---in fact ‘the first night’ in his life?
So why say Nicodemus was the man who first came to Jesus by night?! It is not
Nicodemus the first; it is “the NIGHT the first”!
The word ‘Jesus’ is absent in the best and oldest and, in most, manuscripts.
Remember Erasmus was a Roman Catholic who naturally would prefer any
exceptional manuscript that gives Mary ---‘Mary the mother of God’--- pre-eminence
regardless its age or quality or genuineness. The word ‘Jesus’ is absent
in original and authentic Greek. That’s the fact. You can kick your heels mushy
against the pricks --- just like you do against Jesus’ passover Bone Day --- it
won’t help you or change the truth of the Scriptures. It was Joseph of
Arimathea to whom “the first night” of seven no leavened bread was to be eaten,
“Nicodemus also, came”.
Rubies:
Gerhard wrote: “Dear poor unfortunate bereaved Rubies,
did I not tell you to use PATIENCE with Topix SDA?
I did, but you must have thought it’s just my peace-offering cup of poisoned
coffee …. Wiete gegooi die sjeef innie koffie … Koffie A-Naanbrood?
YOU HAVE TO _WAIT_ BETWEEN POSTS! Or you will LOOSE posts --- like I have many
times.
JUST RE-POST them! Why can’t you re-post them?!
Shucks one would swear _I_ let _your_ posts disappear, are you silly or not?!
I have explained to you many times, with documented evidence, that MANY of the
posts I have made have been DELETED BY TOPIX.
I always copy and save the webpages with my completed, #numbered posts
published thereon.
However, next time I come to town, those #NUMBERS have been deleted. There are
MISSING #NUMBERS on the Topix pages, which keep getting condensed due to so
many deletions.
I have also told you that I will then re-post those same articles, which will
be published an #numbered, and saved those pages. But next visit, THEY ARE ALSO
GONE again.
This has happened in numerous instances, 3 or 4 times over for the same post
#s.
I have pointed out that Topix has also done this to YOUR POSTS GERHARD, which
is often a blessing, as they are so frequently peppered with foul language and
homicidal threats against other posters.
However, I do have a file named “TOPIX DELETED THESE POSTS” which contains not
only MY deleted posts, but YOURS as well.
Kindly READ AND UNDERSTAND what people write. Quit going off half-cocked and
making a blaspheming idiot of yourself! At your perilously advanced age, you
ought to remember the motto, “Never lose your dignity.”
GE:
At my perilous advanced age, I have learned man has no
dignity, what dignity to loose! I am so glad I am not a born and bred
Englishman or American or Anglo-Saxon or whatever sort of Soutie but a BOER who
can write 'proper English' only well enough to frustrate and anger and cause
havoc and desperation among all SUNDAY CRUCIFIXIONIST FRIDAY CROSSITE FREAKS
!
Madam, In Christ Jesus the Saviour of his own, I AM
PERFECT and have ALL DIVINE DIGNITY, having been forgiven through God's grace
every and all my inherited as well as cultivated INDIGNITY IN
MYSELF. Proud am I to say like Paul: I, am the chief of sinners. So
forget to try to improve me, please?
Rubies:
Jesus being “wrapped in
cloth” and spices and laid on the bench in the tomb, WAS the complete burial.
The women intended to bring extra spices to cover Him after the Sabbath – in
addition to the 75 or 100 lbs that Nicodemus had already supplied. This was
their offering to the Lord, much as we might place flowers on a grave today.
But Jesus HAD been “properly buried” and nobody intended to remove His body and
put it in a hole in the ground.
GE:
Yes, Jesus “laid in the
tomb”, was, the COMPLETE, burial. It was the complete Burial WHEN Joseph “had
the stone rolled before the grave’s opening”, and, “had left” and
also the two Marys had “left and returned home and prepared spices and
ointments”. Not before! Then, was it the end of the burial—exactly the
SAME time of day when Jesus on the day BEFORE, breathed his last breath and
died “the ninth hour” = “mid-afternoon” = ‘3 p.m.’, and the approaching day of
the Crucifixion 3 hours later sunset 6 p.m., would begin. Then, was it the
END of the burial, not it’s beginning but the latter opposite of its beginning.
When and where began the day on which Joseph had to bury the body of
Jesus? Here:
“After these things” John 19:38.
Which ‘things’?
The “things” which happened from John 19:31 to verse 37—excluding of course
John’s usual parentheses like in verse 24, the casting of lots for Jesus’
garment the morning already when He was still alive and before they had even
nailed Him to the cross.
Which “things” therefore?
The fact “evening already had come” Mark 15:42 — the fact of the Jews’
consternation “since it had become the Preparation and that day was great
day sabbath” John 19:31 — of their most sacred national feast and the
crosses were still standing in open sight of both the Jewish faithful and their
oppressors! Therefore wrote John, “After THESE things…”.
Only “after these things” (of the Jews’ request to REMOVE THE ROMAN CROSSES),
was Joseph able to ask Pilate for Jesus’ body in order “to bury” Him according
to the “ethical law” of the Passover of Yahweh, the Torah the following prospective
night and day. Because the Law demanded the interment of “that which remained”
of the Passover Sacrifice, that it should be “burned with fire” and returned to
the dust of the earth “the next day” after He had been “killed on the
fourteenth”.
Thus real was the death of the Son of God that He HAD to be BURIED “IN THE
FLESH”.
“Mid-afternoon the Sabbath approaching” Luke 23:54 “by the time of the Jews’
preparations (for the “approaching Sabbath”)” to begin, which preparations
would go on until sunset which meant three more hours for “preparation” before
sunset “that day (which) was The Preparation” RUNNING OUT before “the (weekly)
Sabbath according to the (Fourth) Commandment”, Joseph had FINISHED with Jesus’
Burial “the Selfsame Whole Day Bone Day” of Abib 15.
Jesus had to be properly buried; He was, properly buried “as was the customary
ethics of the Jews to bury”, “according to the Law and Prophets … it behoved
the Christ to suffer pascha.”
Rubies:
“Last Supper” is an
invented term. It is not found in scripture's accounts of Jesus' final meal.
However, “PASSOVER” is used of this final meal, in Luke 22:15.
The disciples “prepared the Passover,” as Matthew, Mark and Luke teach
us.
This preparation could only be done on 14 Nisan.
The room for the Passover feast had, after all, ALREADY been prepared (Mark
14:15). All that remained to do was kill and roast the lamb. Also make some
unleavened bread. Takes just a few minutes; I do it all the time.
“Preparing the Passover” means, killing the lamb and roasting it on the
afternoon of 14 Nisan.
GE:
Thank you. If Rubies told us <Preparing
the Passover> means, <killing
the lamb and roasting it on the afternoon of 14 Nisan>, we can take for
granted at least part of what she tells us is true. The part we may believe
in this case, is, “Preparing the Passover”
means, <killing the lamb … on the
afternoon of 14 Nisan>. <This
preparation could only be done on 14 Nisan.> True!
But you should better not believe, <and roasting it>.
You should also not believe what Rubies avers, <The disciples
“prepared the Passover, “This
preparation could only be done on
14 Nisan.> So take care not to believe anything Rubies
says! Never! Like where she claims, <as
Matthew, Mark and Luke teach us> that. No; that is not Matthew Mark or
Luke or John for that matter; that is just Rubie’s in bad taste joking lie.
Don’t believe anything the faked Rubies openly lies.
NOTHING of what she says, is true; EVERYTHING is a covert lie of some sort in
some obscure way. Like 1) It was not <The
room for the Passover feast prepared (Mark 14:15)”; it was the room for the
Last Supper and first “Lord’s Supper” which was already prepared;
2) <All that
remained to do was kill and roast the lamb.> That’s simply an open
opportunist lie! 3) <Also make some
unleavened bread.> That is a very dumb lie; Make ulb with leavened dow?
At the beginning of the day on which leaven still had to be removed? That is
silly!
So at last the faked Rubies openly comes to the fore
with her faked religion, It <Takes
just a few minutes; I do it all the time. “Preparing the Passover” means,
killing the lamb and
roasting it on the afternoon
of 14 Nisan.>
Whether the Rubies means only the <few minutes> it takes her to roast
her unleavened bread or also her <killing
the lamb and roasting it on the afternoon of 14 Nisan>— it makes no
difference, it is a totally FAKED religion!
But the Scriptures say in Exodus 12:8, e.g., “They shall eat the flesh in that
night, ROAST WITH FIRE”. That means they ate it off the fire. They ate it as it
were, “with fire” AND “WITH THE FLESH”. Where is your lamb’s flesh Rubies!? They ate it “as is without anything”. Idiom
for that was, “bitter”; they ate it “with bitter” or with bitterness—the FLESH!
You want to roast Reg because he claims the lamb was
slaughtered after sunset, but you do the same?!
In this short extract from one of your posts, Rubies, you have used the word(s)
prepare, 4 times or 6 if you count the three Gospels which you mentioned. And
you CONCLUDED with stating this, <<This preparation could only be done on 14 Nisan.>> Now why
did you say <<“PREPARE the
PASSOVER”= HETOIMAZO>>? How could you say, to <<“PREPARE” the Passover is a different word,
unrelated to PARASKEUE>>!? How could you say, <<There is no hetoimazo” in John 19:14>>!?
.
http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/seventh-day-adventist/TCMT0QQAME27RFJT4/p192
Rubies:
It was forbidden to kill
it on one day and eat it at any other time than the evening immediately
following sunset of that day.
GE:
Untrue! You directly contradict the truth which
required – ordered - to kill the passover on one day and eat it in the evening
immediately following sunset—after—and not <…of>, <that day>.
Rubies:
It was forbidden to kill
it on one day and eat it at any other time than the evening immediately
following sunset of that day.
GE:
No. The passover in
Rubies:
It was forbidden to kill
it on one day and eat it at any other time than the evening immediately following
sunset of that day. Therefore the meal that Jesus ate with His disciples, MUST
have been the Passover lamb. Indeed, the descriptions of the meal confirm
that they followed the traditional procedure for eating the Passover lamb,
gathered in a company of at least 10 people, drinking the 4 cups of wine,
dipping the unleavened bread into the dish and sharing it, saying prayers and
singing psalms etc. Alfred Edersheim and Joseph S. C. F. Frey both wrote
comprehensively about this.
Also, “before the feast of the Passover” takes us right up to the time on the
night of 15 Nisan as everyone was about to eat the Passover lamb, doesn't it? It
was at this meal that Jesus, according to the other gospels, humbled Himself to
the status of a servant and washed the disciples' feet – which is surely as
loving a thing as could be imagined on such an occasion. So John, the disciple
who above all others, taught us of the loving heart of Jesus, does not
contradict the synoptics here at all.
GE:
There are so many discrepancies in this one post of Rubies they can fill
books when exposed. It’s wormwood from the first to the last words. <It was forbidden to kill it on one day and
eat it at any other time than the evening immediately following sunset of that
day.> <… kill it on one day …
eat it … the evening … of that day>?! <… that day…>, Abib 14 or Abib 15?!
No.
Kill on Abib 14; eat it on Abib 15.
Kill 3 p.m. “mid-afternoon” on Abib 14’
But:
Eat in the “evening”/”night” on Abib 15.
Eat “the hour”, “when having become evening already” on Abib 15, Luke 22:7,14
Mark 14:12,17.
Therefore
Kill 3 p.m. “on the first day the REMOVED leaven and killed the
passover” on Abib 14. Mark 14:12,17 Matthew 26:17,20 Luke 22:7,14
John 13:1,30 1Corinthian 11:23.
But, “eat … evening already having come” on Abib 15.
Luke
23:50 Mark 15:42 Matthew27:57 John 19:31,38,39.
Before “the Lord’s Supper”— before “the meal”— “before the Feast” John
12:23,27; 13:1, Jesus said to them, “My, hour is come”; “Now, is my soul
troubled.” And after the Lord’s Supper Jesus said to them, “This is your, hour”,
and Luke said, “their day came”.
So: At the first and last passovers “on the first day seven days ulb shall be
eaten : WITH THE FLESH”: “the first night”: “this that BONE DAY : NIGHT”: “evening
already having come” on Abib 15, “there came to him (Joseph) Nicodemus”.
Therefore:
At the first and last passovers on Abib 14 “on the first DAY ye, first, shall
remove leaven” Exodus 12:15b.
At the first and last passovers on Abib 14, 3 p.m.: “Ye shall KILL the passover”.
Numbers 28:16.
“Ye shall kill it late”—‘ereb’ Exodus 12:6,15a
“Ye shall kill it mid-afternoon”—‘behn-ha-arba-y im’ Leviticus 23:5
At the first and last passovers on Abib 14, 3 p.m., “on the first day they had removed
leaven and killed ‘Our’ Passover”, “late”, “mid-afternoon”, “the ninth hour”—Mark
14:12; 15:34 Matthew 26:17; 27:46 Luke 22:7; 23:44 John 13:1; 19:30 1Corinthian
15:3.
At the first passover “this day—the FOURTEENTH day—shall be to you a FEAST”
Exodus 12:14 —EAT unleavened bread LATE” [‘ereb’] Exodus 12:18.
But on all passovers thereafter, “On the FIFTEENTH day of the month is the
FEAST seven days ye must EAT unleavened bread the first day.” Numbers
28:17a.
So from “the first day unleavened bread on the FIFTEENTH” in Leviticus 23:6,7,
until “the one and twentieth day” in Exodus 12:18b are “seven days unleavened
bread”, was eaten. It was eaten “late”—‘ereb’ in the OT Numbers 28:17b = “evening”—‘opsia’
in the NT.
At in between passovers on Abib 14, 3 p.m., they KILLED the passover, “late”—‘ereb’
Deuteronomy 16:6 Numbers 9:3,5.
But AFTER the exodus: “ye shall EAT late…”
And after the exodus: “…EAT it on Abib 15 “the hour” “when having become
evening already”.
Rubies therefore speaks against her own better knowing and conscience, having
posted <<Therefore the meal that
Jesus ate with His disciples, MUST have been the Passover lamb.>>
Rubies:
It was forbidden to kill
the passover on one day and eat it at any other time than the evening
immediately following sunset of that day. Therefore the meal that Jesus ate
with His disciples, MUST have been the Passover lamb.
GE:
To eat is to assimilate
corruptible with corruptible—to bury. Therefore “the evening immediately
following sunset of that day” “they killed the passover on”, was the day they
buried the passover sacrifice which remained over on, in this case, “the body
of Jesus” in full substance of flesh and “no bone of Him broken or severed”.
Rubies:
The descriptions of the
meal confirm that they followed the traditional procedure for eating the
Passover lamb, gathered in a company of at least 10 people, drinking the 4 cups
of wine, dipping the unleavened bread into the dish and sharing it, saying
prayers and singing psalms etc. Alfred Edersheim and Joseph S. C. F. Frey both
wrote comprehensively about this.
GE:
Many other misapprehending and misinformed did.
Rubies:
Also, “before the feast of the Passover” takes us right up to the time on
the night of 15 Nisan as everyone was about to eat the Passover lamb, doesn't
it?
GE:
It sure does! Which makes your claim that the passover lamb was eaten at
its beginning in the “evening” of the fourteenth day, null and void. Cant’ you
see <right up to the night of 15 Nisan>—right
from, the night of the fourteenth!
Rubies:
It was at this meal that Jesus, according to the other gospels, humbled
Himself to the status of a servant and washed the disciples' feet – which is
surely as loving a thing as could be imagined on such an occasion. So John, the
disciple who above all others, taught us of the loving heart of Jesus, does not
contradict the synoptics here at all.
GE:
Yes, <It was at this meal>
“on the first day they killed the passover … when it was already evening and
the Preparation Day” that Jesus according to the Gospel of John, <humbled Himself to the status of a servant
and washed the disciples' feet>. 10 11 14 Gloria in excelsis Deo et in
terra pax hominibus bonae voluntatis.
Rubies:
Wheat Firstfruits must
necessarily have fallen on SUNDAY, as it was the day following the series of 7
full weeks or 7 complete SABBATHS. That is – 49 days after the day following
the SABBATH, is the day following the SEVENTH SABBATH.
50 days prior to the SUNDAY of the Wheat Firstfruits is the SABBATH (SATURDAY)
during the Feast of Unleavened Bread.
The next day, Wave-sheaf, is “the faday after the Sabbath,” and it is also 7
complete Sabbaths = 49 days before Feast of Weeks.
There is simply no other way to add up the 7 full weeks (7 complete Sabbaths)
and come to the day after the 7th Sabbath, which = 50 days from the Sabbath
during ULB, unless both days of Firstfruits fall on the FIRST DAY of the WEEK.
NO DATES are ever given for these 2 Appointed Feasts.
The only way to determine them, according to the Lord, is by COUNTING from the
SABBATH.
First count ONE DAY from the SABBATH,
then add on ANOTHER 7 SABBATHS = 49 DAYS
= 50 DAYS from the Sabbath
= the DAY AFTER the 7th SABBATH.
GE:
<According to the Lord … the only
way to determine> the fiftieth day, was, “first”, “counting from”, “the
day after the sabbath (to its season) … the sabbath YOU must appoint to its
SEASON”— “the fifteenth Day of the First Month”. Therefore “first” “counting
from” and including the sixteenth day of the month.
HOW must be counted? “Seven Sabbaths-weeks complete, and, the day after the
seventh Sabbath-week the fiftieth day.” Leviticus 23:15,16. That is, first
counting the seven weeks then add one day after them, the fiftieth day. It is
not <COUNTING from the SABBATH>;
it was “count from the day after the sabbath” of the passover. It is not <50 DAYS from the Sabbath = the DAY
AFTER the 7th SABBATH>. It is not <the DAY AFTER the 7th SABBATH> or the First Day of the week,
<SUNDAY>.
In Leviticus as during the exodus itself, God predestined “the day after the
sabbath”—“after the sabbath … to its season”, that historically, it would be and, was, the Seventh Day
Sabbath. Therefore in Leviticus the “seven sabbaths-weeks” began on and
with the Seventh Day Sabbath so that the fiftieth day after “the sabbath to its
season” of Abib 15, would again be and again was, the Seventh Day Sabbath and
the fiftieth of the fifty days of the “seven Sabbaths-weeks and the day after
the seventh Sabbaths-week”.
Leviticus speaks about literal “seven Sabbaths’-weeks” every one ending with
and on the Sixth Day of each literal “Sabbaths’-week”.
Changed in later times after the exodus, it became “weeks-of-sevens”-‘hebdomas’
referenced in Deuteronomy 16 instead of “Sabbaths’-week” referenced in
Leviticus. Why? Only because “the sabbath to its season”, Abib 15, through the
years occurred on any day of the “Sabbaths’-week”. That is also why Deuteronomy
speaks of the first day the harvest actually began full-day as the
beginning-day of “seven of seven (day)s-weeks”—forty nine days—, and does not like
Leviticus, take into account that “the day after the seventh Sabbaths’-week”,
was “fifty days”.
Rubies:
NO DATES are ever given
for these 2 Appointed Feasts.
GE:
That is not the case. And Rosends claims it is all
about
<establishing
the date>! Now whom shall be believed? Neither!
In fact there are no <feasts appointed> or, <date
established> by the phrase, “the day after the sabbath”, but the
DAY—“BONE-DAY”, by its NAME as the only “Bone-Day” in the Scriptures— the one
and only “Bone-Day” <appointed>
“to its season”, of the passover. In any case, <appointed Feasts>, are, their <dates> just the same as they are their sacrifices. The
separation between the days their dates and there sacrifices is as artificial
as the religion demanding it.
Rubies:
The KARAITES (successors
of the SADDUCEES) correctly observe both Feasts of Firstfruits on the first
days of the week, following the scriptural admonition. They also begin the
year as God commanded, after the first Aviv barley has been found at the end of
the 12th or 13th month Adar.
Exo 9:31 The flax and the barley were struck down, for the BARLEY was
ABIB and the flax was in bud. 32 But the wheat and the emmer were not
struck down, for they are late in coming up.
Exo 12:1 The LORD said to Moses and Aaron in the
The ESSENES also invariably observed both days of Firstfruits on SUNDAYS, and
referred to the Pharisees as, “The Wicked Priest who went wrong in their
calendar and kept the Lord's Feasts on the wrong days.”
However, they began their Omer count from the Sabbath following the full week
of ULB. They began every year with 1 Nisan on Wednesday. Their Feasts
fell on the same days of the week each year, with 14 Nisan always being on
Tuesday. So the Essene Wave-sheaf was always on Sunday 26th Nisan, and
their Feast of Weeks was always on Sunday 15th Sivan.
GE:
…says Rubies … says Rubies having heard something about Karaites and
Essenes neither who believed in Christ the Substance.
Rubies:
The PHARISEES (now RABBINS) are the odd men out here.
GE:
No choice between the three groups of non-Christian unbelieving
anti-Christs has been mandated the Christian.
Rubies:
The Pharisees arbitrarily place Wave-sheaf on 16 Nisan and Feast of Weeks
on 6th Sivan, whichever day of the week these dates may fall on, even though
there is NO scriptural authority for this.
GE:
In this matter, it is vice versa what Rubies claims. In this matter—believing
Rubies about them—it is the Saducees and Karaites and Essenes who on own
authority act arbitrarily and the Pharisees who act on <scriptural authority for … plac(ing) Wave-sheaf on 16 Nisan>.
Because the Scriptures place Abib 15 “the
sabbath … ye shall proclaim … to its season”! It cannot be simpler or more
unambiguous. Because God talks straight and single-minded; not like man with
forked tongue from divided heart.
Rubies:
... the weekly Sabbath
(that is … the ONLY SABBATH EVER mentioned in the N.T.= the WEEKLY
Sabbath)...,
GE:
Yes, Luke 23:54 states “mid-afternoon the Sabbath nearing”— “the WEEKLY
Sabbath”— “the Sabbath according to the (Fourth) Commandment” Luke 23:56. That
is true.
But it is not true <the weekly Sabbath
… is … the ONLY SABBATH EVER mentioned in the N.T.>. John 19:31 defines
“it was The Preparation and that day was great day sabbath”— of the passover
naturally. Mark 15:42 defines “that day The Preparation”: “which is the
Fore-Sabbath”— “Fore-Sabbath” definitely and definitively before the weekly
Sabbath.
So the New Testament also mentions “sabbath-of-great-day” of the passover. Luke
also in Acts 13 referred to the “in-between-sabbath” of “Bone Day-Sabbath” at
the Yom Kippur.
Luke also mentioned the “week” using just the Genitive word ‘of-the-sabbath’
for it.
Rubies:
There was only 3 hours
left before the weekly Sabbath (that is … the ONLY SABBATH EVER mentioned in
the N.T.= the WEEKLY Sabbath) began, ANOTHER 3 HOURS LATER.
3rd HOUR + 3 HOURS = 6th HOUR.
6th HOUR + 3 HOURS = 9th HOUR.
9th HOUR + 3 HOURS = 12th HOUR = SUNSET.
But you Reg, say
Even Peter the fisherman could count to 12 every day.
REG!! Study these scriptures and correct your mind so it is in line with God's
rather than with your delusions.
Mark 15:42 : Since it was ALREADY EVENING (this is the correct translation of “EDE
OPSIAS”)(OPSIAS : STRONG'S = afternoon; early evening; THAYER = between 3 p.m.
& 6 p.m.)
John 19:42 : on FRIDAY, which was still PARASKEUE, the Preparation =
PROSABBATON, the day before Sabbath,
John 19:38,39 : Joseph and Nicodemus took Jesus' body down and laid it in
a new tomb close by.
Jesus DIED AT the NINTH HOUR of the day, Mark 15:34-37
(the HOUR of PRAYER, Acts 3:1) which is 3 p.m. at the equinox, 3 hours before
sunset, on the day called Paraskeue, John 19:31 (this is the Greek name for
FRIDAY),
GE:
Wait!
Rubies:
Mark 15:42 : Since it was already evening (this is the correct translation
of “
John 19:42 : on FRIDAY, which was still PARASKEUE, the Preparation =
PROSABBATON, the day before Sabbath,
John 19:38,39 : Joseph and Nicodemus took Jesus' body down and laid it in
a new tomb close by.
Jesus DIED AT the NINTH HOUR of the day, Mark 15:34-37
(the HOUR of PRAYER, Acts 3:1) which is 3 p.m. at the equinox, 3 hours before
sunset, on the day called PARASKEUE, John 19:31 (this is the Greek name for
FRIDAY),
GE:
You cannot have Mark 15:42, then John 19:42, then John 19:38,39, then Mark
15:34-37!
You cannot have
“it was already evening” Mark 15:42,
then suddenly be “on FRIDAY”— “before Sabbath”, “mid-afternoon” Luke 23:54 “by the
time of the Jews’ preparation to begin” John 19:42 ---
then go back to “Joseph … took Jesus' body down” John 19:38, when “it was
already evening” Mark 15:42, “and Nicodemus also came to him that first night”
John 19:39,
then jump forward again to when “Joseph and Nicodemus took Jesus' body …
and laid it in a new tomb”— “by the time of the Jews’ preparation to
begin”, “mid-afternoon” “before Sabbath” John 19:41,42 Luke 23:54’
then again go back to “Jesus DIED AT the NINTH HOUR of the day, Mark
15:34-37”
The Gospels have in sequence of time as well as text—in sequence of context as
well as content, Mark 15:34-37, then Mark 15:42, then John 19:38,39, and last,
John 19:42 and Luke 23:54 !
The Gospels have in sequence of time as well as text, and in sequence of
context as well as content,
<Jesus DIED AT the ninth hour of
the day, Mark 15:34-37>;
“and everybody forsook Him and left” Luke 23:48,49;
“It was already evening” Mark 15:42,
“and since the Preparation had begun the Jews asked Pilate” John 19:31;
“And after these things Joseph … asked Pilate” John 19:38;
Then “Joseph … took Jesus' body down” John 19:38;
“and Nicodemus also came to him that first night” John 19:39;
“and they prepared the body of Jesus to bury (him)” John 19:40;
And at last, <3 p.m. at the equinox, 3
hours before sunset, on the day called PARASKEUE… this is the Greek name for FRIDAY…
Joseph and Nicodemus took Jesus' body… and laid it in a new tomb>.
But—to mention but one example—, Rubies fraudulently smuggled in <Joseph and Nicodemus took Jesus' body
_down_ and laid it in a new tomb … 3 p.m. at the equinox, 3 hours before sunset>. God
is watching you, Rubies!
Rubies:
Jesus DIED AT the
NINTH HOUR of the day, Mark 15:34-37
(the HOUR of PRAYER, Acts 3:1)
which is 3 p.m. at the equinox,
3 hours before sunset,
on the day called PARASKEUE, John 19:31
(this is the Greek name for FRIDAY),
also known as PROSABBATON
(the Greek word which means, “The DAY BEFORE the WEEKLY SABBATH,” Mark 15:42)
which must necessarily be FRIDAY,
and “THE SABBATH WAS BEGINNING,” Luke 23:54
which also proves this was FRIDAY.
Therefore HE HAD TO BE BURIED BY SUNSET, Joshua 8:29
in the 3 HOURS remaining before the 12th hour,
that same day as He was hung on the tree, Deut 21:22,23
FRIDAY, BEFORE SUNSET. By commandment of the Lord.
GE:
Rubies’ big, lie in a word: < John 19:31>:
<Jesus DIED AT the NINTH HOUR of
the day, Mark 15:34-37… (the HOUR of PRAYER, Acts 3:1)… which is 3 p.m. at the
equinox,… 3 hours before sunset,… on the day called PARASKEUE, John 19:31>…
<Jesus DIED… on the day called
PARASKEUE, John 19:31>— “The Preparation … that day of sabbath great day”
of passover. Jesus did not die then, or, in John 19:31. It is Rubies’ big, lie.
Yes, this is Rubies’ big lie—Rbies stating, <Jesus DIED AT the NINTH HOUR of the day, Mark 15:34-37… on the day
called PARASKEUE, John 19:31.> This is Rubies’ big lie because Mark
15:34-37 was the day BEFORE—the day BEFORE, <on the day called PARASKEUE, John 19:31>.
This is Rubies’ big lie because she makes <the day called PARASKEUE… John 19:31… FRIDAY… also known as PROSABBATON
… The DAY BEFORE the WEEKLY SABBATH… Mark 15:42) which must necessarily be
FRIDAY… the day… Jesus DIED at the NINTH HOUR… Mark 15:34-37.> She
also lies because she says that <THE
SABBATH WAS BEGINNING… Luke 23:54> while it was ‘Friday’ the Preparation
which was ending or rather was beginning to end, “the Sabbath approaching
mid-afternoon that day”—of Friday! And yes, <which also proves this was FRIDAY>. But what does Rubies mean
with <this>? That’s her trick;
her lie! Because Rubies says <this>—<the day Jesus DIED AT the ninth
hour of, Mark 15:34-37>—, <this
was FRIDAY>! And yes, <HE HAD
TO BE BURIED BY SUNSET>. But that is not what <Joshua 8:29> is about or says. And that is not in <Deut 21:22,23>, <in the 3 HOURS remaining before the 12th
hour> or, the <same day as He
was hung [Sic.] on the tree>. Because
none of all these faked rubies were on <FRIDAY,
BEFORE SUNSET>, or, on the Sixth Day from after sunset and evening, or,
<By commandment of the Lord>,
but by the wickedly lying mouth of one incognito faked Rubies on
TopixSDA.
To the God of Truth only, glory and majesty through Christ raised from the dead
“In Sabbath’s-time before the First Day of the week”.
Rubies:
The Wednesday cross heresy only came about through
false prophets such as Herbert W. Armstrong who defied the simple scriptural
teaching and invented their own aberrant doctrines. Was HWA, “Elijah the
prophet”? No? Obviously not! But he said he was! This proves him a liar and a
deceiver. Everything he taught must therefore be discarded. You cannot pick and
choose amongst the doctrines of false prophets. They must be stoned to death,
kit & caboodle, to “purge the evil from your midst.”
As for the US Navy – they are beastly careless about the date of the Cross.
Their impartial astronomical data is quoted and misapplied by heretics to
befuddle others not clever enough to check these facts out for themselves. You
cannot blame the USNO for other peoples' false doctrines. They are not
responsible for what anyone else does with their accurate information.
The “New Moon” data given by the USNO is for CONJUNCTION, not for the first
visible crescent of the moon. Therefore those using this info will be out
by either 1 or 2 days in their dates for Jewish months. Thus 14 Nisan in
30 AD was FRIDAY 7th April. In 31 AD, it was TUESDAY 27th March, using the
correct method of first visibility of the moon.
Also you fail to take into account that “opse” means “AFTER; LONG AFTER.” And “epiphosko”
means “GETTING LIGHTER; DAWN.”
GE:
<that “opse” means “AFTER; LONG
AFTER”>, is not true. For many centuries Bible translators never gave
this idea a thought and never allowed it to enter into their renderings of
Mathew 28:1. Reg has with every right posted and reposted all the English
Bibles from the first one by Tyndale until the last translated in the
nineteenth century and they like one, correctly translated ‘opse’ with “late” /
“late in” / “late on”.
Then it is a fact of history and etymology as unmovable as the rock of
Gibraltar that ‘opse’ has in all—yes ALL—the existence of the Greek language
never been used in the way and in the sense that Rubies here arrogates
falsely—NOT EVEN IN MODERN translations in Greek of Matthew 28:1.
Here is the perfect illustration of absolutely NO comprehension or knowledge of
the Greek language—not only by Rubies, but by the quasi translators who since
the twentieth century have been attempting to create a case for SUNDAY WORSHIP
BY STEALING JESUS’ RESURRECTION FOR IT.
And what could be easier than to pretend ‘opse’ in Matthew 28:1 truly means
what they ABUSE THEIR HOLY DUTY AS TRANSLATORS OF GOD’S WORD TO MAKE IT
LOOK!
They LIE in worship, and adoration and superstitious veneration and divining of
their great idol and FALSE GOD, the lord Sun and his Day of worship. And they
shall commit murder and atrocities unthinkable of Christians, for their god and
its glorification. They shall even—they at present ARE—robbing Christ of the
truth of his “Sabbath’s”-Resurrection from the dead to honour the god of all
ages among pagans and heathens, ‘The Day of the Lord Sun’.
Rubies:
And “epiphosko” means “GETTING
LIGHTER; DAWN.”
GE:
This is Rubies’ same lie and same abuse of truth and
same show of incompetence in Greek or Bible.
Rubies:
… “3 days and 3 nights” is
a Jewish idiom rather than a precise count of the number of hours.
GE:
Rubies does not know what an ‘idiom’ is. Which is clear as daylight JUST by
her reference here to the <“3 days and
3 nights”> as <a Jewish idiom>.
The <“3 days and 3 nights”>
occurs ONCE in the New Testament. But an ‘idiom’ to be an ‘idiom’ is so often
occurring in every day use of a language that it defies set rules of grammar,
syntax and semantics. For example, the word “week” in the New Testament
from the New Testament IDIOMATIC Hebraism, ‘sabbatou’ Singular or ‘sabbatohn’
Plural “… of the week”— “First Day of the week”, or, “the Sabbath (of the week)”
--- no difference it means and says the same thing. So, the plain PHRASE, <3 days and 3 nights”> is no <idiom> but a literal phrase of
literal MEANING. It only and ONLY means what it says in the writing, which is “three
days and three nights”.
Rubies:
<3 days and 3 nights> is a Jewish idiom rather than a precise
count of the number of hours.
GE:
Sure! That the phrase <3 days and
3 nights> is not <a precise
count of hours>, is so. If it were a precise count of hours that is
expressed with saying <3 days and 3
nights> (instead), then it might have been given second thoughts for
going through for an <idiom>.
But now <3 days and 3 nights> do
not as conceived and does not as an <idiom>
refer to something else than what it spells in so many words, but simply is
what it is: WORDS meaning what they say.
Rubies:
JOSEPHUS (A Levitical
Priest) Antiquities of the Jews, Book 14:4 “3. And any one may hence learn how
very great piety we exercise towards God, and the observance of his laws, since
the priests were not at all hindered from their sacred ministrations by their
fear during this siege, but did still TWICE A DAY, IN THE MORNING and ABOUT the
NINTH HOUR, OFFER THEIR SACRIFICES on the altar.” Antiquities, Book 3:10 “Concerning
the festivals; and how each day of such festival is to be observed.
“1. the law requires, that out of the public expenses a lamb of the first year
be killed EVERY DAY, at the BEGINNING and at the ENDING of the DAY.”
“5. In the month of Xanthicus, which is by us called Nisan, and is the
beginning of our year, ON the 14th DAY of the LUNAR MONTH, when the sun is in
Aries,(for in this month it was that we were delivered from bondage under the
Egyptians,) the law ordained that we should every year slay that sacrifice
which I before told you we slew when we came out of Egypt, and which was called
the passover; and so we do celebrate this passover in companies, leaving
nothing of what we sacrifice till the day following.
The feast of unleavened bread succeeds that of the passover, and falls on the
15th day of the month, and continues 7 days, wherein they feed on unleavened
bread; on every one of which days two bulls are killed, and one ram, and seven
lambs.”
GE:
New Testament Truth does not rely on traitor Jews or
loyal Jews.
Rubies:
MARY MAGDALENE was one of
the many women who came to the tomb very early on Sunday morning to anoint
Jesus' body, according to ALL the concordant accounts of Matthew, Mark, Luke
and John.
GE:
Denied! Mary Magdalene was
one of the women mentioned in Luke 24:10 who came to the tomb very early “deepest
of morning”—‘orthrou batheohs’ on Sunday morning to anoint Jesus' body,
according to ONE account—that of Luke in 24:1,2.
Rubies:
This was the FIRST time she had come to the tomb, obviously, as she had
brought that alabaster flask of pure nard
GE:
Denied! <This> account
in Luke 24:1,2, was the first time “THEY”, had come to the tomb as “they, had
brought their, spices prepared and ready with them,…”
Rubies:
This was the FIRST time she had come to the tomb, obviously, as she had
brought that alabaster flask of pure nard, which Jesus had told the disciples
she must be allowed to use to anoint Him after He died. John 12:7 Jesus said, “Leave
her alone, so that she may keep it for the day of my burial.”
GE:
Why must you always add a twist to the text?! Jesus did not say, <Leave her alone, so that she may keep it for
the day of my burial.> He said just what the KJV says, “Let her
alone: AGAINST (that is, “before” and “for”) the day of my Burying (Burial) she
kept (or “did”) this (which she had done).”
Therefore no; Mary Magdalene “brought / carried with” her to the grave, the “spices
and sweet ointments” which she and “the other Mary” on the Friday after “mid-afternoon”
after “they had left” and “had gone home” after Joseph had closed the grave, “prepared”.
Luke 23:54-56a. They on Friday prepared their spices and “after the Sabbath” on
‘Saturday evening’, “bought” some more “spices, so that, when they (together
with Salome) would go, they could / might anoint Him.” Mark 16:1. Which
according to Luke, they did, “just after midnight [‘orthrou batheohs’] on the
First Day of the week”. Luke 24:1,2. “They… and other women with them came
to the tomb.” At this visit, “they (the women) saw the stone [as Mary Magdalene
must have told them] but on entering into the grave, they found not the body”.
Therefore Luke 24:1,2 and 22,23 make mention of the first visit at and inside
the tomb. The two men told these women at this first visit by them all: “that
He was alive” [‘dzehn’]. “But Him they saw not”, the women themselves
witnessed. Luke 24:23,24.
So why has Rubies said, <Mary Magdalene was one of the many women who came to the tomb very
early on Sunday morning to anoint Jesus' body, according to ALL the concordant
accounts of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.>? Not for no reason at
all but on the contrary to CREATE THE IMPRESSION Mary Magdalene was one of the
many women who came to the tomb very early on Sunday morning to anoint Jesus'
body, and according to all the concordant accounts of Matthew, Mark, Luke and
John witnessed Jesus’ resurrection occurring. False Rubies!
Rubies:
Reg, YOU claim that Mary Magdalene saw Jesus on SATURDAY NIGHT. But LUKE
says that she first saw the empty tomb on SUNDAY MORNING AT DAYBREAK. THEN Mary
Magdalene told the disciples. THEN Peter ran to the tomb and found it empty. {Luke
here omits the sightings of Jesus.} THEN the 2 men met Jesus on the road to
Emmaus, DURING the DAY, AFTER the morning when Mary Magdalene found the tomb
empty, ON THE VERY SAME DAY, BEFORE THE AFTERNOON. BEFORE THE EVENING, of the
FIRST DAY off the WEEK, on which JESUS ROSE from the dead.
.
GE:
False Rubies, <… the FIRST DAY off
the WEEK, on which JESUS ROSE from the dead>!
Rubies:
Reg, YOU claim that Mary
Magdalene saw Jesus on SATURDAY NIGHT. But LUKE says that she first saw the
empty tomb on SUNDAY MORNING AT DAYBREAK. THEN Mary Magdalene told the
disciples. THEN Peter ran to the tomb and found it empty. {Luke here omits the
sightings of Jesus.} THEN the 2 men met Jesus on the road to Emmaus, DURING the
DAY, AFTER the morning when Mary Magdalene found the tomb empty, ON THE VERY
SAME DAY, BEFORE THE AFTERNOON. BEFORE THE EVENING, of the FIRST DAY off the
WEEK, on which JESUS ROSE from the dead.
GE:
False Rubies, <… LUKE says that
she first saw the empty tomb on SUNDAY MORNING AT DAYBREAK>!
Rubies:
THEN the 2 men walked another 2 hours back to Jerusalem, where it was
almost sunset, and the disciples were all gathered together for their evening
meal :
Luk 24:33 And they rose that same hour and returned to Jerusalem. And they
found the eleven and those who were with them gathered together, Luk 24:34
saying, “The Lord has risen indeed, and has APPEARED TO SIMON!”
Get yourself a pen and paper Reg, and draw up a diagram of how these things all
fit together. But make sure you leave out your crank theory that “EPIPHOSKOUSE
eis mian Sabbaton” (BECOMING LIGHT; DAWNING on the first day of the week, Matt
28:1) means “getting darker after sunset on Sabbath.”
GE:
As little as <EPIPHOSKOUSE eis
mian Sabbaton> means <getting
darker after sunset on Sabbath>, as little—in fact as nothing—, does it
mean <BECOMING LIGHT; DAWNING on the
first day of the week>. Must I rewrite the whole Grammar Book on
this? Go read http://www.biblestudents.co.za/books/Book%202... (from p 63).
First get it right, it is not <EPIPHOSKOUSE
eis mian Sabbaton>. There is nothing right in this, <EPIPHOSKOUSE eis mian Sabbaton>;
everything in it is ignominious ignoramus stupidensis. It is
‘tehi’—Dative Article, “in the”
‘epiphohskousehi’—Dative Noun, “while / being in mid /
height daylight inclining (over)”.
In fact, this, <EPIPHOSKOUSE eis mian
Sabbaton> is more wrong than meets the eye wrong in <EPIPHOSKOUSE eis mian Sabbaton>. Because
it is not <EPIPHOSKOUSE eis mian
Sabbaton>, but it is “SABBATH’S”—‘SABBATOHN tehi epiphohskousehi eis
mian sabbatohn’— “SABBATH’S-time while being in the mid height daylight
inclining (over)”. In fact it is more than just “SABBATH’S-time while /
being in mid / height daylight inclining”, because it indeed is, “IN
FULLNESS of Sabbath’s-time while being in the mid height daylight of the
Sabbath inclining”— “IN FULLNESS”—‘OPSE sabbatohn tehi
epiphohskousehi’!
In fact it is more than just “In fullness of Sabbath’s-time while being in
mid height daylight of the Sabbath inclining”, because it actually was “…
BUT, in the fullness of the Sabbath Day while being in mid height daylight of
the Sabbath inclining”—‘opse DE, sabbatohn tehi epiphohskousehi’.
It was IN SPITE OF the fact a few hours earlier on “in the morning”—‘tehi
epaurion’— on that Sabbath Day “after the Jews’ Preparation Day”, the Jewish
and Roman bosses have tried their best to make it impossible for Jesus’ body to
get out of the tomb. “They made the sepulchre SURE, sealing the stone and
setting a watch.” “But despite”—‘de’— “In the fullness of the SABBATH being
in mid height daylight of the Sabbath inclining towards the First Day of the
week, THERE WAS GREAT EARTHQUAKE … and the angel of the Lord CAST THE STONE
AWAY from the door” and Christ rose from the dead “IN SABBATH’S FULLNESS
BEING IN THE HEIGHT OF INCLINING DAYLIGHT over towards the First Day of the
week.” It was then that “the angel of the Lord cast the stone away from
the door and sat on it” and Jesus rose from the dead. Matthew 28:1,2.
Although the CONTEXT in Matthew 28:1,2 implicates that
“late-OPSE-on the Sabbath” was “toward the First Day of the week”, <towards> is not the literal or
semantic meaning of the word 'opse' as such. ... Come to think of it ... I
retract this 'notion' of mine! The idea that <opse = toward> definitely does not work in Matthew 28:1 because it
would not mean “IN the Sabbath” or “ON the Sabbath” the true meaning in Matthew
28:1. Instead it would mean “time late on the Sixth Day before the Sabbath”
like in Luke 23:54 ‘epephosken sabbaton’ means “time late on the Sixth Day
before the Sabbath”.
So no, <opse = toward> is an
absolute MESS, and I RETRACT and declare null and void that I ever wrote such
NONSENSE as this post, #4072 http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/seventh-d...!
'Opse' = “late on the Sabbath” in Matthew 28:1!
Rubies:
A VERSE for EVERY DAY for
11 DAYS, Part 2.
Previously posted as #941 then as #1126.
FIRST DAY of the WEEK Saturday night – SUNDAY
Some women bought spices as soon as Sabbath had ended, on SATURDAY NIGHT.
Mark 16:1.
Jesus rose very early at dawn {PROI} on SUNDAY MORNING.
Mark 16:9.
Mary Magdalene & other women went to the tomb on SUNDAY MORNING :
on the first day of the week {TE DE MIA TON SABBATON}
Matt 28:1; Mark 16:2; Luke 24:1; John 20:1;
GE:
Never has any single person managed to fit such a fylfot of fumbling lies
together, as in this contraption, <Mary
Magdalene & other women went to the tomb on SUNDAY MORNING : on the first
day of the week {TE DE MIA TON SABBATON} Matt 28:1; Mark 16:2; Luke 24:1; John
20:1>. Rubies at her very truest self!
Matthew 28:1 … “Mary Magdalene” and one, other woman— “the other Mary”— “set
out to (go have a) LOOK at the tomb ON THE SABBATH”. They never arrived at
the tomb because they “set out to go have a look at the tomb WHEN SUDDENLY
THERE WAS A GREAT EARTHQUAKE” which must have prevented them to do what they “set
out TO” do. To do what? “TO see the grave” Intentional Infinitive — “when
there was a great earthquake” that was not <on SUNDAY MORNING>— “BUT, LATE ON THE SABBATH”!
How many lies so far has Rubies taken the pains to compose?
1) <Mary
Magdalene & other women>;
2) <went to
the tomb>;
3) <went on
SUNDAY>;
4) <went on
Sunday MORNING>;
and the crowning lie,
5) <Jesus
rose … on SUNDAY MORNING>.
Rubies never tires of her lying! Unbelievable!
So Rubies elaborates on her ‘consistent’ lying and sommer places on par as one
and the same in every aspect and respect, <Matt 28:1; Mark 16:2; Luke 24:1; John 20:1>— which exponentially
multiplies all her lies which we have so far identified. Try work it out, they
very quickly become MILLIONS of ACTUAL, FACTUAL, PRACTICAL, LIES!
Have you in your life come across a rotten carcass in the vast open plains of
nowhere? Have you seen how innumerable are the maggots and flies in that
carcass? And have you smelled how it STINKS miles off?! Worse, have you
felt how those swarms of most beautiful green and purple and blue insects can
afflict and scourge you?! Well, if you have, then you have now seen the
religious replica of it.
Rubies:
Jesus rose very early at
dawn {PROI} on SUNDAY MORNING. Mark 16:9.
Mary Magdalene & other women went to the tomb on SUNDAY MORNING : on the
first day of the week {TE DE MIA TON SABBATON}
Matt 28:1; Mark 16:2; Luke 24:1; John 20:1;
after the Sabbath / after that week {OPSE SABBATON}, Matt 28:1;
as dawn was breaking {EPIPHOSKOUSE}, Matt 28:1;
very early at daybreak {LIAN PROI} Mark 16:2;
at the rising of the sun {ANATEILANTOS TOU HELIOU} Mark 16:2;
very early at sunrise {ORTHROU BATHEOS} Luke 24:1;
at first dawn / very early in the morning {ORTHRIAI} Luke 24:22;
very early in the morning at dawn {PROI} John 20:1;
while it was still dark {SKOTIAS ETI OUSES} John 20:1.
GE:
Everything is a corruption— everything a lie!
First corruption:
<Jesus rose very early at dawn {PROI}
on SUNDAY MORNING. Mark 16:9.>
Jesus did not <rise> –
Indicative Verb – <…on SUNDAY MORNING.
Mark 16:9>.
“He, risen [Adjectival and Adverbial Participle], early on the First Day,
APPEARED [Indicative Verb]—, ‘anastas de prohï prohtehi sabbatou
ephaneh’.
KJV word order adapted, “Now when Jesus was risen
(he) early on the First Day, appeared”;
Or,
KJV punctuation adapted, “Now when Jesus was risen(,) early on the First
Day, he appeared”.
http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/seventh-day-adventist/TCMT0QQAME27RFJT4/p194
GE:
“Jesus rose” not <very early at dawn {PROI} on SUNDAY MORNING. Mark 16:9>! He
rose “when there came a great earthquake in the end of the Sabbath as it
began to dawn towards the First Day mid-afternoon of the Sabbath”—‘opse de
sabbatohn tehi epiphohskousehi eis mian sabbatohn’.
Rubies:
Jesus rose very early
at dawn {proi} on Sunday morning.
Mark 16:9.
Mary Magdalene & other women went to the tomb on SUNDAY MORNING : on the
first day of the week {TE DE MIA TON SABBATON}
Matt 28:1; Mark 16:2; Luke 24:1; John 20:1;
after the Sabbath / after that week {opse sabbaton}, Matt 28:1;
as dawn was breaking {EPIPHOSKOUSE}, Matt 28:1;
very early at daybreak {LIAN PROI} Mark 16:2;
at the rising of the sun {anateilantos tou heliou} Mark 16:2;
very early at sunrise {ORTHROU BATHEOS} Luke 24:1;
at first dawn / very early in the morning {orthriai} Luke 24:22;
very early in the morning at dawn {PROI} John 20:1;
while it was still dark {SKOTIAS ETI OUSES} John 20:1.
GE:
Rubies’ second corruption:
Sequence:
<Mark 16:9 … Matt 28:1; Mark 16:2;
Luke 24:1; John 20:1>
True sequence:
Matt 28:1-4 “Late on Sabbath mid-afternoon earthquake”
John 20:1 “Mary on First Day being early dark still sees stone”
Luke 24:1 “Women after-midnight morning found not the body”
Mark 16:2 “They came very early before sunrise… inspected stone… afraid…
fled… told no one”
Mark 16:9 = John 19:11 “Risen, Jesus early on the First day appeared to
Mary Magdalene first”
Matthew 28:5,6 “Explained the angel to the (other) women: He was
raised—late on the Sabbath (verse 1) as He said (verse 6) the
third day”(27:64)
Rubies:
Jesus rose very early
at dawn {PROI} on SUNDAY MORNING.
Mark 16:9.
Mary Magdalene & other women went to the tomb on SUNDAY MORNING :
on the first day of the week {TE DE MIA TON SABBATON}
Matt 28:1; Mark 16:2; Luke 24:1; John 20:1;
after the Sabbath / after that week {opse sabbaton}, Matt 28:1;
as dawn was breaking {EPIPHOSKOUSE}, Matt 28:1;
very early at daybreak {LIAN PROI} Mark 16:2;
at the rising of the sun {anateilantos tou heliou} Mark 16:2;
very early at sunrise {ORTHROU BATHEOS} Luke 24:1;
at first dawn / very early in the morning {ORTHRIAI} Luke 24:22;
very early in the morning at dawn {PROI} John 20:1;
while it was still dark {SKOTIAS ETI OUSES} John 20:1.
GE:
Rubies’ third corruption:
Translations:
Mark 16:9, Rubies’ ‘translation’,
<Jesus rose very early at dawn
{PROI} on SUNDAY MORNING … te de mia
ton sabbaton> in Matthew 28:1! There besides, is no <te de mia ton sabbaton> in Matthew
28:1. “Jesus, risen, early [‘prohï’] on the First
Day APPEARED.”
Matthew 28:1, Rubies’‘translation’, <Jesus rose
(when) Mary Magdalene & other women went
to the tomb after the Sabbath / after that week {opse sabbaton}: on Sunday
morning : as dawn was breaking {epiphoskouse}: on the first day of
the week {te de mia ton sabbaton}> (Rearrangement here of Rubies’
confused concoction above, is mine. GE)
God’s Word recorded …
“6 Jesus was raised as He said… 5 explained
the angel to the women… 1 late ON THE SABBATH in the mid-afternoon
before the First Day of the week when Mary Magdalene and the other
Mary set out to go see the tomb and there came a great earthquake and the angel
of the Lord descending from heaven, cast the stone away from the grave.”
Mark 16:2, Rubies’ ‘translation’, <Jesus rose
… on the first day of the week {
There is no <Jesus rose …>
in Mark 16:2;
there is not even <Jesus appeared>
in Mark 16:2.
There is just “women (who) deliberately came on, to the tomb”—‘erchontai
epi, to mnehma’.
Luke 24:1, Rubies’ ‘translation’, <Jesus rose
… very early at sunrise {ORTHROU BATHEOS}… at first dawn / very early in the
morning {ORTHRIAI} Luke 24:22>
There is no <Jesus rose …>
in Luke 24:1;
there is not even <Jesus appeared>
in Luke 24:1.
There is just “women (who) came to the tomb and found the stone was away
from the sepulchre, entered in, but did not find the body”, confirmed
negative in 24:23.
John 20:1, Rubies’ ‘translation’,
<Jesus rose …very early in the
morning at dawn {PROI}… while it was still dark {SKOTIAS ETI OUSES}>
There is no <Jesus rose …>
in John 20:1.
There is not even <Jesus appeared> in John 20:1;
There is no <very
early morning at dawn {PROI}> in John
20:1; There is no <while it was still dark {SKOTIAS ETI OUSES}>, just “being
still early of dark on the First Day”— “being still dusk = early
dark” before, “dark”.
There is no <dark> or <still dark> before light in John 20:1;
but “early of dark”—‘prohï skotias’ before the dark of total night;
There is no grave seen in John 20:1, but the stone away from it.
There is no entering into the grave in John 20:1;
There is no finding out that the body was gone in the
end!
Just doubt and perplexity left in the mind of ONE women.
The rest did not believe her, or her suspicions or her conjectures.
Rubies:
Reg, YOU claim that Mary
Magdalene saw Jesus on SATURDAY NIGHT. But LUKE says that she first
saw the empty tomb on SUNDAY MORNING AT DAYBREAK. THEN Mary Magdalene told the
disciples. THEN Peter ran to the tomb and found it empty.{Luke here omits the
sightings of Jesus.} THEN the 2 men met Jesus on the road to
Emmaus, DURING the DAY, AFTER the morning when Mary Magdalene found the tomb
empty, ON THE VERY SAME DAY, BEFORE THE AFTERNOON. BEFORE THE EVENING,
of the FIRST DAY off the WEEK, on which JESUS ROSE from the
dead. THEN the 2 men walked another 2 hours back to Jerusalem, where it was
almost sunset, and the disciples were all gathered together for their evening
meal :
Luk 24:33 And they rose that same hour and returned to Jerusalem. And they
found the eleven and those who were with them gathered together, Luk 24:34
saying, “The Lord has risen indeed, and has APPEARED TO SIMON!”
Get yourself a pen and paper Reg, and draw up a diagram of how these
things all fit together. But make sure you leave out your crank theory that “EPIPHOSKOUSE
eis mian Sabbaton” (BECOMING LIGHT; DAWNING on the first day of the
week, Matt 28:1) means “getting darker after sunset on Sabbath.”
GE:
Rubies the eternal fraudstres, “Luk
24:34 saying, “The Lord has risen”. “When therefore He was risen from
the dead his disciples remembered that He had said to them, (The zeal of / for
Thine
House has eaten me up).” Luke 24:34
<Has
(Jesus) risen … when his disciples remembered>? Impossible nonsensical English!
Now just so, Rubies, is your, Jesus “has
risen” here! Only much more corrupt and scandalous! How shameless can you
be?
ine Rubies; you have taken us through the whole of
Saturday night and the day of Sunday.
First you denied what Reg <claim(s)
that Mary Magdalene saw Jesus on SATURDAY NIGHT.> Fine, I
agree with you, John did not write that and that did not happen.
Then you led us through all the events afterwards (your version), and ended
with saying, <Reg, and draw up a
diagram of how these things all fit together. But make sure you leave out your
crank theory that “EPIPHOSKOUSE eis mian Sabbaton” (BECOMING LIGHT; DAWNING on
the first day of the week, Matt 28:1) means “getting darker after sunset on
Sabbath”.> Which implies that you – correctly – understand that the
Resurrection occurred in Matthew 28:1, <“epiphoskouse
eis mian Sabbaton>… Fine!
But let us wait a bit with your ‘translation’, <…BECOMING LIGHT; DAWNING on the first day of
the week> for a while so that we can test it if it not also like Reg’s,
is only <your crank theory>.
You have taken us through Saturday night. Like this:
<SATURDAY NIGHT.
… LUKE says that she (Mary) first saw the empty tomb on SUNDAY MORNING AT
DAYBREAK. THEN Mary Magdalene told the disciples. THEN Peter ran to the tomb
and found it empty.{Luke here omits the sightings of Jesus.}
… the morning … Mary Magdalene found the tomb empty, ON THE VERY SAME DAY,… of
the FIRST DAY off the WEEK, on which JESUS ROSE from the dead.…Luk 24:34
saying, “The Lord has risen indeed, and has APPEARED TO SIMON!”>
Now get yourself a pen and paper Rubies, and draw up a diagram of how these
things all fit together according to yourself, Rubies, will you? Make sure
WHERE <“EPIPHOSKOUSE eis mian Sabbaton”
(BECOMING LIGHT; DAWNING on the first day of the week> fits in!
Remember, the <BECOMING LIGHT”>
/ <DAWNING on the first day of the
week>! I’ll draw up a diagram making use of only what you gave me to
work with…
<SATURDAY NIGHT. … LUKE says that she
(Mary) first saw the empty tomb on SUNDAY MORNING AT DAYBREAK.>
Sorry, denied! Luke does not say <she
(Mary) first saw the empty tomb>—that is Rubies saying … rather, lying.
But let Rubies explain herself further here; it is just fair.
Rubies: <“very early at sunrise
{ORTHROU BATHEOS} Luke 24:1; at first dawn / very early in the morning
{ORTHRIAI} Luke 24:22>
Maybe took <at first dawn> for
Mary <first saw the empty tomb>?
Even so, then Mary <first saw the
empty tomb… at first dawn… very early in the morning {ORTHRIAI}… {ORTHROU
BATHEOS} Luke 24:1…Luke 24:22>!
Rubies explains on, <THEN Mary Magdalene told the disciples. THEN Peter ran to the tomb and
found it empty. {Luke here omits the sightings of Jesus.}… the morning…Mary
Magdalene found the tomb empty, ON THE VERY SAME DAY,…of the FIRST DAY off the
WEEK, on which JESUS ROSE from the dead.…Luk 24:34 saying, “The Lord has risen
indeed, and has APPEARED TO SIMON!”>
We ask Rubies now to please explain the time of day and day of the week
referred to in Luke 24:34 saying, “The Lord has risen indeed, and has APPEARED
TO SIMON!”? Does not Luke 24:34 tell about events of that past day on the First
Day of the week “late, the day far spent”?
Of course, yes! So, WHEN did Jesus appear to Simon—before or after He appeared
to Mary Magdalene, “first”? Rubies LIES therefore stating for fact <Luke omits…the sightings of Jesus>—<sightings> aka appearances to Simon
(and others) BEFORE HE APPEARED TO MARY MAGDALENE!
But this has been only the beginning.
Rubies stated <that “opse” means
“AFTER; LONG AFTER.” And “epiphosko” means “GETTING LIGHTER; DAWN”> She
confirmed above, <“EPIPHOSKOUSE eis
mian Sabbaton” (BECOMING LIGHT; DAWNING on the first day of the week”>.
That is when Rubies has claimed, Jesus rose from his grave.
Therefore, according to Rubies, Jesus rose from the dead, after that He had had
appeared, to Simon and some other people <very early at sunrise {ORTHROU BATHEOS} Luke 24:1; at first dawn / very
early in the morning {ORTHRIAI} Luke 24:22>.
<Very early at sunrise> is in
any case an incorrect interpretation of “orthrou batheohs” in Luke 24:1 and 22
because <ORTHROU BATHEOS...ORTHRIAI> is LONG BEFORE <at first dawn…very early in the morning>,‘orthros’
or / and ‘batheohs’ having been used throughout Greek history for the
‘after-midnight DEEPEST’ quarter or watch of night.
As Rubies pointed out herself, Luke recorded the women’s first and earliest
visit at the tomb, <This was the FIRST
time she had come to the tomb, obviously, as she had brought that alabaster
flask of pure nard>. It is just logical that Luke’s visit was the
earliest in the “deepest of night morning” long before, <Sunday morning at daybreak...becoming light;
dawning on the first day of the week, Matt 28:1>… when supposedly
according to Rubies and the whole world, there came a great earthquake and
Jesus rose from the dead.
It therefore is just logical that the women’s visit was the earliest in the “deepest
of night morning on the First Day of the week” Luke 24:1, long AFTER, “Sabbath
mid-afternoon in the bright daylight inclining towards the First Day of the
week”, Matthew 28:1 when according to God’s Eternal Purpose, “there came a
great earthquake” and Jesus rose from the dead “on the Sabbath Day”— “and
God from all his works RESTED”.
As Rubies pointed out herself, Luke recorded the
women’s first and earliest visit at the tomb, <This was the FIRST time she had come to the tomb, obviously, as she had
brought that alabaster flask of pure nard>. WOULD SHE HAVE COME IF JESUS
ALREADY HAD APPEARED TO HER?! No; Jesus
only could have appeared to Mary much later --- when it is claimed He rose from
the dead!
Jesus long BEFORE already had raised from his grave nobody having seen Him rise
or just conscious of the fact He HAD RAISED ALREADY:— “In Sabbath Day’s
fullness in the daylight mid-inclining towards the First Day of the week”.
Rubies:
JOHN'S ACCOUNT of the SAME EVENT [as Luke 24:1 to 34
#2672]: Joh 20:1 Now ON THE FIRST DAY OF THE WEEK MARY MAGDALENE came to
the tomb EARLY, {PROI means, “AT DAWN;” “DAYBREAK WATCH;” “EARLY IN THE
MORNING”} while it was STILL dark, {NOT, “getting darker”}
and saw that the stone had been taken away from the tomb.
MARY MAGDALENE (and JOANNA and the other MARY and the OTHER WOMEN, Luke 24:10)
ran to tell the disciples that the tomb was empty.
THEN Peter and John ran back to the tomb.
MARY MAGDALENE also returned to the tomb.
THIS was when she first met Jesus, early on SUNDAY MORNING, the only time that
gardeners might possibly be “supposed” to begin their week's work :
Joh 20:10 Then the disciples went back to their homes. 11 But Mary stood
weeping outside the tomb, and as she wept she stooped to look into the
tomb. 12 And she saw two angels in white, sitting where the body of
Jesus had lain, one at the head and one at the feet. 13 They said to her, “Woman,
why are you weeping?” She said to them, “They have taken away my
Lord, and I do not know where they have laid him.”
NOW she sees Jesus for the first time, early on Sunday morning :
Joh 20:14 Having said this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing, but
she did not know that it was Jesus. 15 Jesus said to her, “Woman, why
are you weeping? Whom are you seeking?” SUPPOSING HIM TO BE THE
GARDENER, she said to him, “Sir, if you have carried him away, tell
me where you have laid him, and I will take him away.” 16 Jesus said to
her, “Mary.” She turned and said to him in Aramaic, “Rabboni!” (which means
Teacher). 17 Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to me, for I have not
yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brothers and say to them, 'I
am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.' 18 Mary
Magdalene went and announced to the disciples, “I HAVE SEEN THE LORD”—and
that he had said these things to her.
So this was the second time Mary Magdalene went to tell the disciples. Still
early on Sunday morning.
GE:
Rubies:#2672, <LUKE
says that she first saw the empty tomb on SUNDAY MORNING AT DAYBREAK. THEN Mary
Magdalene told the disciples. THEN Peter ran to the tomb and found it empty.>
Rubies:#2673, <So this (JOHN'S
ACCOUNT…Joh 20:1-18) was the second time Mary Magdalene went to tell the
disciples. Still early on Sunday morning” According to Rubies this was the same
event as in Luke’s account in 24:1,23 “JOHN'S ACCOUNT of the SAME EVENT : Joh
20:1 Now ON THE FIRST DAY OF THE WEEK MARY MAGDALENE came to the tomb>
So Mary “came” once, but “went” twice?
No; because Rubies tells us <JOHN'S ACCOUNT of the SAME EVENT> as in Luke 24:1,23 <was the second time Mary Magdalene WENT to
tell>. Still, Mary ‘came’ once because it was the <same event>, but ‘went’ twice because
she <went to tell>, twice!?
In fact, Rubies got it right and also not right!
In fact Mary ‘went to tell’ before the Lord appeared to her; and, she ‘went to
tell’ after the Lord had appeared to her.
And that means, Rubies is wrong in that she identifies Luke 24 and John 20 and
calls them <the SAME EVENT>.
They were not <the SAME EVENT>.
In fact, they were THREE ‘events’, John 20:1,2; then Luke 24:1,2(,23); then
John 20:11-18! Which explains the ‘coming once’ but ‘going twice’ of Mary
Magdalene to be incorrect, because she ‘came’ MORE THAN ONCE! And: it explains
how Mary ‘went’ ONE TIME LESS than she ‘came’! So,Get yourself a pen and paper,
and draw up a diagram of how these things all fit together…
Visits at the tomb “on the First Day”
1)”Mary sees the stone removed”, “while being early darkness still”, dusk.
Then Peter and John go to the tomb to see what Mary has told
them.(Jn20:1-10)
2)”Earliest morning- darkness”, just after midnight, “the two women”(variant –
the two Marys), “and certain others with them”, for the first time, “came to
the sepulchre, bringing the spices they had prepared”.(Lk24:1)”They returned
from the sepulchre, and told all these things to the eleven and to all the rest.
“(“Then Peter stood up and ran to the tomb; and bending low over, he saw the
linen clothes. He went back, wandering by himself about that what had happened.
“(Lk24:9-12) Cf. John's account in 20:1-10. I can't say Luke talks of another
visit by Peter, but it seems true because Luke doesn't mention John.)
3) These women to make sure, a second time came to the tomb “very early before
sunrise”.(Mk16:2)
4) Mary from after the others had fled in fear (Mk16:8)”had had stood without
at the grave”(Jn20:11). At the time a gardener should begin work, about
sunrise, Jesus “early … first appeared to Mary”.(Mk16:9)
5) Soon after – after they a third time have visited the tomb and “the angel
explained” to them what had happened during the Resurrection – Jesus appears to
the other women “as they went to tell his disciples”.(Mt28:5, 9)
Mary went to the tomb, three times, Jn20:1, Lk24:1, Mk16:2, and Mk16:9 when she
“had remained standing behind” until, Jn20:11, Jesus appeared to her, “first”,
Mk16:9, and alone, “at the grave”, Jn20:16.
The other women also went to the tomb, three times, Lk24:1, Mk16:2, and Mt28:5
when “the angel explained” to them what had happened during the Resurrection,
and Jesus, as “they went to tell his disciples”, appeared to them.(Mt28:5,
9)
The answer to the ‘Easter enigma’(John Wenham) is simple: Each Gospel
contributed to the whole with one of several sources; each added a personal
part that, put together, will bring the whole story of the Resurrection into
proper perspective.
Tradition – that is, the Sunday-resurrection approach – make of these several
stories of several visits, the one and simultaneous occasion of Jesus’
resurrection. Contradictions, discrepancies and total confusion are the
inevitable result! It was bad enough that this ‘solution’ to a self-created
‘riddle’ was ever offered just to protect Sunday’s presumed status of being the
day of the Resurrection. It became a comedy of tragic proportions when
Sunday-protagonists began to defend their presumptuousness through unlawful
improvements on the Scriptures.
So Mary ‘saw’ in John 20:1, “then ran” “in the dusk” in verse 2; but in John
20:11, “Mary HAD HAD STOOD / STAYED AFTER at the sepulchre” since her visit in
Mark 16:2-8 some 3 hours earlier after she some 9 hours before had seen “the
stone away from the grave” in John 20:1.
Whitehare:
No question about it, this time Gerhard is CORRECT all
the way, and Rubies is WRONG! Take that to the bank.
Rubies:
JOHN'S ACCOUNT of the SAME
EVENT :
GE:
You also posted, Rubies, <MARY
MAGDALENE was one of the many women who came to the tomb very early on Sunday
morning to anoint Jesus' body, according to ALL the concordant accounts of
Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.>
That is the basic underlying principle of all as yet attempted explanations for
the ‘Easter enigma’ (as Wigram referred to them). The FAILED principle—the
failed principle which has not solved a single ‘discrepancy’ or ‘enigma’ as
yet, but so far has increased many times the myriads of existing ones. All,
supposed or imagined or assumed ‘contradictions’ or ‘irreconcilabilities’ or
whatever ‘impossibilities’ based on and derived from and caused by THIS VERY
underlying principle seen here for example in your own futile undertaking to
explain them—right here now quoted from you.
The solution?
John's account is NOT <the same event>
in any of the other Gospels and no Gospel’s account is the same event in John’s
or any other Gospel’s account. Each Gospel’s account is its own account,
different from but not differing with any other Gospel or Gospels’, accounts.
It is not one and <the same event>
recorded in all the Gospels. Yes, the larger picture is that of the same WHOLE;
but the larger picture is made up of the individual Gospel’s smaller pictures, PUT
TOGETHER.
Therefore, <John's account> in
chapter 20, is NOT <the same event>
found in Luke in chapter 24 or in Matthew in chapter 28 or in Mark in chapter 16.
And therefore, WHY is it so taken for granted that <ALL the concordant accounts of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John” are the
“SAME EVENT>? It is silly actually, to phrase this statement like
it is phrased. Why call then <concordant>
if they are <the same event>?
It requires DIFFERENT and MORE than the one same event to make up <concordant accounts>; it is
discordant accounts which give discordant accounts of the same event. Again,
the Gospels are different but not differing, stories of different events that make
up the one flawless account of Jesus’ Resurrection in all four Gospels.
But to get back to my question,
WHY is it so taken for granted that <ALL the concordant
accounts of Matthew, Mark,
Luke and John” are the “SAME EVENT>? Because it is so TOTALLY taken for granted that all four
Gospels are ‘eye-witness events’ of <the
same event>, the Resurrection of Jesus! Which is DENIED:
First, because the Gospels are NOT ‘eye-witness accounts’ OF Jesus’
Resurrection. They are Inspired Witness—SCRIPTURE—TO, Jesus’
Resurrection.
Next, NO human being,‘witnessed’ with sight, the event of Jesus’ Resurrection;
nobody saw Jesus rise from his grave or inside his grave,
Three, No Gospel recorded the Divine Act of Christ’s Resurrection as such.
Four, Only Matthew recorded the CIRCUMSTANTIAL EVENTS AT THE TIME AND PLACE of
Jesus’ Resurrection: “FROM the dead” viz.,
1) “in the SEPULCHRE”;
2) “when there was a great EARTHQUAKE”;
3) “and the ANGEL of the Lord descended”; and
4) “Mary Magdalene and the other Mary SET OUT TO GO SEE the sepulchre”;
5) “and late ON THE SABBATH in the mid-afternoon before the approaching First
Day of the week”.
Rubies:
Mar 16:9 Now when [Jesus]
was risen early the first [day] of the week, he appeared first to Mary
Magdalene.
The KJV frequently [ADDED words] to the scriptures, such as here. What this
verse ought to say, is :
Mark 16:9 “Rising early in the morning of the first of the week, He appeared
first to Mary Magdalene.”
There is no “WAS risen” as you think, in the past tense.
The verse clearly states that JESUS ROSE EARLY ON SUNDAY MORNING.
.
GE:
Rubies the Greek Authority. Eish!
KJV, Mark 16:9, “Now when [Jesus] was risen early the first [day] of the week,
he appeared first to Mary Magdalene.”
Rubies:
The KJV frequently [ADDED words] to the scriptures, such as here.
GE:
Although it is an improvable translation the KJV <ADDED> no <words to
this Scripture>. You don’tknow what you’re talking!
Rubies:
What this verse ought to say, is : Mark 16:9 “Rising early in the morning
of the first of the week, He appeared first to Mary Magdalene.”
GE:
“Rising” would require a Present Participle; Mark 16:9 uses the Aorist
Participle that for nothing in your life will be rendered with the Indicative
Present Continuous, <rising>.
.
Rubies:
There is no “WAS risen” as you think, in the past tense.
GE:
I knew that but you do not know that. Because you do not know the
difference between a “Tense” in English and a ‘Mood’ in Greek or the difference
between a Verb in English and a Participle in Greek. The King James is
correct, but it could have chosen better words, like “Risen, he appeared”
instead of “When he was risen he appeared”— “when he was risen”—, ONE WORD IN
GREEK, ‘anastas’, Adjectival Adverbial Aorist2 Participle Nominative Singular
Masculine, of ‘anistehmi’—‘to raise into existence’, therefore, “raised up
again, Jesus first appeared to Mary”,
Adverbial: “He APPEARED (as) The-Risen to Mary Magdalene first, early on the
First Day of the week.”
Or,
Adjectival: “(As) The-RESURRECTED, He appeared to Mary Magdalene first,
early on the First Day of the week.”
Rubies:
The verse clearly states that JESUS ROSE EARLY ON SUNDAY MORNING.
GE:
Blatant blunder. The verse clearly does not state that Jesus rose early on
Sunday morning. If you knew anything about Greek you would have known.
Rubies:
YOU twist the antiquated
KJV scripture here, and refuse to read a modern, accurate translation such as
the ESV, which clearly says :
Mar 16:9 Now WHEN HE ROSE EARLY ON THE FIRST DAY OF THE WEEK,
.
GE:
Yes, Rubies likes a modern, biased adaptation such as the ESV, which
clearly corrupts the Text, “Risen he appeared” in Mark 16:9, into an inaccurate
quasi translation, “Now WHEN HE ROSE EARLY ON THE FIRST DAY OF THE WEEK”.
Rubies:
Read a modern, accurate translation such as the ESV, which clearly says : Mar
16:9 Now WHEN HE ROSE EARLY ON THE FIRST DAY OF THE WEEK, HE APPEARED FIRST TO
MARY MAGDALENE ...10 She went and told those who had been with him, as they
mourned and wept. It dos not matter where you put the comma! You do not even
need a comma. It is blindingly obvious to all but the wilfully blind, that
JESUS ROSE EARLY ON SUNDAY MORNING, that MARY MAGDALENE was the FIRST to see
Him on Sunday morning, and that MARY MAGDALENE told the disciples this, EARLY
ON SUNDAY MORNING.
GE:
Nobody is <wilfully blind>
for the truths here, except you, that Mary Magdalene was the first to see Him “early”
: <on Sunday morning>, and that
Mary Magdalene told the disciples this, later, <early on Sunday morning>. But it is you who are <wilfully blind>— no, who PRETEND,
blind for your own, covered up subtle sly and immoral perversion <that JESUS ROSE EARLY ON SUNDAY MORNING>.
And it is useless to repeat your yelling lie.
Rubies:
Day of Passover Sacrifice:
Nisan 14, two dailies at 9AM and second at 3PM”– except in years when dates are
disordered by Nisan 14 falling on the Sabbath.
GE:
Joshua and
Rubies:
Apparently you think that
the “two dailies” were applicable only to the 14th Nisan! But the fact is that
these sacrifices – the oloth ha'tamid (regular burnt offering) and the Passover
– are two separate things! The Passover was sacrificed on just one day of the
year (or two days if you count the second Passover in Iyyar for all who were
unable to observe the first in Nisan). But the regular burnt offering
consisting of the morning and evening sacrifices, was offered every single day
of the year! This is for instance, the “regular burnt offering” found in Daniel
8:11, 12, 13; 11:31; 12:11. There, it refers to the coming desecrations by the
Antichrist before Jesus returns to destroy him.
Also in Ezekiel 46:15, which teaches us that this regular sacrifice will
continue throughout the future millennial reign of the Messiah on earth.
So I will correct my answer here. On 14th Nisan, the “two dailies” were offered
as on every day of the year.
Num 28:3 “This is the food offering that you shall
offer to the LORD: two male lambs a year old without blemish, DAY BY DAY, as a
REGULAR OFFERING. 4 The one lamb you shall offer in the MORNING, and the other
lamb you shall offer at TWILIGHT ... 6 It is a REGULAR BURNT OFFERING,
which was ordained at
a food offering to the LORD. However, the “evening sacrifice” was necessarily
moved forward an hour or so on 14 Nisan, to accommodate the Passover sacrifice
which must be made at about 3 pm, before sunset.
GE:
Nothing of which rigmarole applied to or happened on
the first and the last ever passovers—the two Passover-Sufferings of Yahweh;
the first, first passover at the goings-out of “the Kingdom of Darkness” and “The
First and The Last” and “Alpha and Omega” of passovers—, “Our Passover”, “Out
of the Kingdom of Darkness Into the Kingdom and Light of God’s Dear Son.
—Nothing of your stuff could happen in That Day, on Jesus’ last passover :
because The Lamb of God Jesus Christ so fully filled and so verily fulfilled
the ‘God-given and therefore eschatological Imperative Whole and Wholeness’* of
the Passover of Yahweh “in Three Days Thick Darkness” the “Whole Day Bone-Day”
of the “Plague Upon Him”, “three days and three nights IN THE HEART OF THE
EARTH”.
“The Sun of Righteousness shall arise with healing in his
wings.…Behold …the GREAT AND TERRIBLE DAY OF
THE LORD.”
[* Lohmeyer’s expression borrowed.]
Rubies:
“Ceremonial sabbath” is a
furphy that must be discarded in light of scripture. It is special pleading
engaged in by the SDAs for the sole purpose of discrediting this verse :
Col 2:16 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you
in questions of food and drink,
or with regard to FESTIVAL {ANNUAL observation}
or NEW MOON {MONTHLY observation}
or SABBATH.{WEEKLY observation.}
The SDA and COG foundation and very reason for existence crumbles, of course,
if this verse refers to the weekly Sabbath. Which it clearly does.
Taking their aversion to extremes, many sabbatarians these days hate the truth
of this verse so vehemently, that they pronounce Paul an apostate and delete
his all words from their bibles.
Hence the many decades of denial and subterfuge engaged in, creating other “ceremonial
sabbaths” which were all supposedly “nailed to the Cross.”
This conspicuous ploy spectacularly fails when SDAs next insist that the “DAY
of Atonement” was NOT nailed to the Cross with all the other Appointed Feasts,
but began in 1844 and is still continuing today, 170 YEARS later, with no end
in sight.
Therefore, PROSABBATON which means “before Sabbath” can only be FRIDAY. And
since PARASKEUE = PROSABBATON, then PARASKEUE explicitly, and invariably, means
FRIDAY.… All 4 Gospels unequivocally, emphatically and unanimously state that
Jesus was crucified, He died and was buried on FRIDAY.
GE:
Even were every word,
true, it does not, <state>, nor
does it indicate or elude to, nor does it prove, <He died and was buried on FRIDAY>. Your post has been useless
‘information’ of no value even for anything else in life. You have said,
nothing in fact. And you need not have mentioned these things, are you trying
to show with them that they mean that <He
died and was buried on FRIDAY>. Rather keep quiet and save face. Because
the day Jesus was BURIED on, started where the Gospels say “the evening had
come already” in four ‘parallel Scriptures’—which “evening” in all four
‘parallel Scriptures’, ”had already come” AFTER the previous and past day on
which Jesus had been Crucified and had Died.
Bring the Manuscript(s) which have Mark 15:42 “The evening had come and because
it already was The Preparation which is the Fore-Sabbath Joseph went in before
Pilate”, BEFORE 15:24,37 Jesus’ Crucifixion and death! Bring them, quote them!
Then you may say what you are trying to say with “evening” in every sense and
manner occurring, AFTER 15:24,37 Jesus’ Crucifixion and Death! And bring it in
every one of <all 4 Gospels>,
or admit their truth and your, fraud! Bring the Manuscript(s) which have
Matthew 27:57 “When the even was come, there came Joseph”, before 27:35,50
Jesus’ Crucifixion and death! Bring the Manuscript(s) which have Luke 23:50,52 “Behold,
Joseph went unto Pilate”, before 23:33,46 Jesus’ Crucifixion and death! Bring
the Manuscript(s) which have John 19:31,38 “the Jews because the Preparation
had begun, asked Pilate” and “his side (was) pierced” and “after (them) Joseph
asked Pilate”, before 19:23,30 Jesus’ Crucifixion and death! Bring, quote, <all
4 Gospels>! THEN Rubies, shall I listen to you; not before!
Rubies:
Hundreds of years of
written testimony of Church Fathers corroborates the truth of this. Any other
interpretation is unscriptural specious argument from those with a spurious
gospel to support. QUOD ERAT DEMONSTRANDUM : All 4 Gospels unequivocally,
emphatically and unanimously state that Jesus was crucified, He died and was
buried on FRIDAY.
GE:
http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/seventh-day-adventist/TCMT0QQAME27RFJT4/p197
Quote? You have <a spurious gospel to support>, Rubies; not me. You—ironically or
not ironic whatsoever—are the one in collaboration with the Seventh-day
Adventists, not me. You are the party here, who acts the Seventh-day Adventist,
the Roman Catholic and the sect and the cult; not me.
http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/seventh-day-adventist/TCMT0QQAME27RFJT4/p195
GE:
WCs and Friday freaks have much in common; they all
believe the lie of the same-day-Crucifixion Death and Burial.
Alex:
Exodus 12:13 has no
indication of “ALREADY, AND, “ON THE FOURTEENTH”. The eating and the shodding
of feet were both “in that night” on the 15th. They would have remained in
their houses with painted lintels and jambs for protection until the
Lord passed over at midnight on the 15th and started out at daybreak.
GE:
“in that night” is a reference to the fourteenth—the only date found in the
whole of Exodus.
It is “on the 15th”—your addition and edition—which there is <no indication of> in Exodus
12:13.
Fact no. 1, in Exodus 12 Israel departed on the fourteenth;
Fact no. 2, in Numbers 33:3 they departed on the fifteenth.
The LORD passed over on the fourteenth in Exodus 12. The date of the
fourteenth is given twice, in the text before they departed and in the text
after they had departed. Exodus 12:6 and 18.
Do not by yourself decide this must be a discrepancy; it is not; it is Divine
Dispensation. The explanation is not in human alternatives and elaborations but
in Divine fulfilment by Jesus Christ Our Passover. In the
Reg:
when Joseph came to Pilot
for the body of Jesus my study bible is a Newberry KJV arranged in paragraphs
with signs pointing out the perfection beauty and treasures, of the Hebrew and
Greek originals published in 1832.
MT 27:57 When the even was come, there came a rich man of Arimathaea, named
Joseph, who also himself was Jesus' disciple: Was in this text is Aorist
participle having done sun had set MK 15:42 And now when the even was come, because
it was the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath, the first WAS is
the same as in Mathew the second WAS is imperfect or continuous the past “was
doing” LK 23:54 And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on. Is
imperfect or continuous in the past Drew is the same, the Sabbath was in
motion
GE:
Your ship was
better ‘Piloted’ here. Nevertheless you boarded the wrong ship. In Luke
23:54 “the Sabbath drew on” is Imperfect or Continuous in the past ---
Complex sentence in subordinate relation (‘sabbaton’ Accusative):
Principle clause,
“That Day (‘heh hehmera’ Nominative Subject) of the Preparation (‘Paraskeuehs’)
was in motion/ending (‘ehn’ Imperfect) and…”
Subordinate Predicative clause,
“…and was shining towards (‘epephohsken’) the Sabbath (‘sabbaton’ Accusative).
Or …
Complex sentence in coordinate relation (‘sabbaton’ Nominative):
First clause,
“That Day (‘heh hehmera’ Nominative Subject) of the Preparation (‘Paraskeuehs’)
was in motion/ending (‘ehn’ Imperfect) and…”
Coordinate clause,
“…and the Sabbath (‘sabbaton’ Nominative) was coming shining near
(‘epephohsken’).”
WHAT ABOUT YOU TWO GET RID OF ALL THESE REMOTE AND
DISTANCED AND IRRELEVANT high-sounding scholarship and for a change pay
attention to the SIMPLE WRITTEN WORD OF GOD?!
Alex:
Judge not lest you be judged. I have quoted Scripture thank you very much.
I am not obliged to use it every time!...especially amongst esteemed company!
GE why dont we deal with ONE topic at a time. Saves trying to deal with various
threads! I propose we deal with Rubies Artaxerxes/Darius dilemma. We work out
which edict and which person in respect to Daniel's 70 weeks then move forward
to Crucifixion week.
Rubies - it is a pity that Mr Pratt has not responded to your letter. There is
a lot to take in here. I don't mind the depth but it is a matter of time which
binds and limits most. Can you provide a fitting chronology for the 70 weeks
(consecutive or non-consecutive) from 583 BC for any presumed or real Messiah
to fulfill Daniel 9:24-27?
Rubies:
Yes, I must prompt Mr
Pratt again. I would appreciate an astronomer's opinion on some of those
points. It is true that I have been blessed (?!?) with more free time than
most, and that has enabled me to study this subject painstakingly for many
years now. Still all is not crystal clear. But certain things are concrete,
such as the fact that Ezra& Nehemiah (also Mordecai) returned to
One thing I have discovered, having done a study I called “CHRONOLOGY of ALL
DATED EVENTS in the BOOKS of EZRA, NEHEMIAH, ESTHER, DANIEL, HAGGAI,
ZECHARIAH”, is that all those events occurred within FORTY NINE YEARS from Year
1 Cyrus. That is ... 7 WEEKS of 7 years each, from the date that Cyrus gave his
decree to rebuild both
* Either Year 1 Cyrus was 488 BC (if the 7 & 62 Weeks were contiguous)
* or there was a gap of some unknown aetiology from Year 32 Darius until the
62-Week count re-commenced in 439 BC. Significance of that possibility has not
yet jumped out at me.
The Cross was prophesied to occur “AFTER the 62 Weeks.”
NOT “at the end of the 69th Week.”
Note subtle but critical differences between scriptural expression and common
delusion.
After this, was prophesied the destruction of
THEN, as the denouement of the Abomination of Desolation was prophesied by both
Daniel and Jesus to occur immediately before the Second Coming, the final 7
Years (70th Week) FOR THE JEWS, must terminate at Jesus' return.
This document is a 3-page Chart, therefore much easier to study than the other
docs which nevertheless I hope you have saved for future reference in this
ongoing discussion? So we are at least all au fait with the issues at stake.
[Cut]
I've had the theory “explained” to me more than a soul
can stand. It simply is not true. If you believe this, then you are denying the
Word of God, which says that ONLY the 7th day, the Day of Atonement, and the
7th Year, are a SHABBATH or sabbath. Anything else is a Day of Solemn Assembly
(shabbathon) or a “Holy Convocation” or an “Appointed Feast” (moed) or a Solemn
Assembly (atsereth).
GE:
There you have your explanation, Alex. My donkeys all have a history behind
their names. This donkey of mine, I called Brander. I called him Brander
because I wanted to call him Brander; so I called him Brander. [With apologies
to someone else than Brander or me.]
Useless:
Jesus had to present his blood ....it says quite
plainly in Hebrews 9:12 “but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his
own blood, thus obtaining eternal redemption.” So regardless … it is stated he
entered the
GE:
Christ “entered the
Rubies:
ONLY the 7th day, the Day
of Atonement, and the 7th Year, are a SHABBATH or sabbath. Anything else is a
Day of Solemn Assembly (shabbathon) or a “Holy Convocation” or an “Appointed
Feast” (moed) or a Solemn Assembly (atsereth).
Kevin:
So, a shabbathon is not a shabbath huh? This is
probably one of the most ignorant statements that I've seen on this forum.
It is correct that only the weekly sabbath and the day
of atonement are called “shabbath shabbathon”, but to claim that a shabbathon
is not a shabbath if the word shabbath is not used is ridiculous. That's like
if someone said “The wind sure is windy today.” and someone else said “It sure
is windy.” That the second person wasn't talking about the wind since the word
wind wasn't used.
Rubies, you make no sense.
Maybe you haven't studied the subject of the two
sabbaths during the crucifixion week enough.
What does Matt. 28:1 say? It says, transliterated from
the Greek to English:
At the end (or after) the sabbaton, as it began to
dawn towards
the first sabbaton.
The King James incorrectly says this:
Mat 28:1 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to
dawn toward the first day of the week,
What it really says is, “after the sabbaths, as it
began to dawn towards the first of the sabbaths.
After what Sabbaths? The first day of unleavened bread
which fell on a Thursday and the weekly Sabbath. Which would mean Jesus died on
a Wednesday, and “three days and three nights” later would bring us to the wave
sheaf day which was not Sunday which starts at midnight but just after sunset
after the weekly sabbath.
What is the first of the sabbaths?
This was the first day of the seven sabbaths count to
Pentecost.
Your convoluted argument about the 15th day of Abib
not being a shabbath because it is called a shabbathon is pathetic!1695
GE:
My own finding has been that the first day of the
Seventh Month was also called a sabbath, as well as the fifteenth day of the
First Month, “the sabbath” of the passover—also called the “great day of
sabbath” in John 19:31. But your silliness, Kevin, reaches its zenith where you
claim the KJV is incorrect. Besides
the linguistics which cannot be discussed with you seeing you know as little as
I do about it, just have a look at your miserable attempt at plain logic,
having stated, <What it really says
is, “after the sabbaths, as it began to dawn towards the first of the sabbaths.
After what Sabbaths? The first day of unleavened bread which fell on a Thursday
and the weekly Sabbath.>
<After what
Sabbaths>… but you talk of ONE supposed <sabbath, “the first day of
unleavened bread”>?! And then you say this one and only “first” day, “fell on a Thursday and the weekly Sabbath.”— on TWO days, three
days apart!? But that’s not the worst, in your own estimation superior insight
into the Greek language and analytical thought, you add or subtract or divide
or whatever you thought you were doing, faulty, thus, <What it really says is, “after the sabbaths, as it began to dawn
towards the first of the sabbaths.” AFTER the sabbaths … as it began to dawn
towards the _FIRST_ of the sabbaths”.> What comes after, according to
you? The first?! And the first, what comes after?! Then you cannot even “transliterated from the Greek to English”
correctly. Why, because, as I said, you know nothing about Greek (and, it
seems, about your own tongue, English) because you cannot distinguish between a
Singular and a Plural.
But the following is deliriously lekker, because it is
you, laaitietjie, contradicting yourself, laaitietjie, with stating, “This was the first day of the seven sabbaths
count to Pentecost”, because in just your previous post, you denied that
the first day of the “seven sabbaths” count to Pentecost, was a Sabbath Day!
Eish!
Steenberg:
Old poephollerjie are you alweer lekket mal ? You must
stop belitteling these ouks. IShame on you ! Studie about opsie. I will be in
GE:
You want to worship the Holy God on his Holy Sabbath
Day with an insane, old crater of a man? He does not desire to worship with
you; he is too great a sinner for the company of hypocrites like yourself. In
any case, we are the “Sabbaths' Feast of CHRIST, _Home_ Assemblies Reformed
Protestant Faith' none of which you, are. We are happy and thankful to be few
in numbers and stay few in numbers because with the growth in numbers, people
like you, sneak into CHRIST'S Sabbaths' HOME Assemblies.
Offer declined.
Let me go and wash my mouth and printing fingers.
http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/seventh-day-adventist/TCMT0QQAME27RFJT4/p196
Seventieth week
Kevin:
I'm sure it's not scripture that you would accept, but
this scripture does prophecy that Jesus would bring an end to sacrifice and
offerings in the midst of the week. His death ended the necessity for animal
sacriices.
Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many
for
one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause
the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of
abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that
determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
As I said I'm sure you'll reject that this prophecy is
about Jesus but your rejection does not make it not so.
GE:
Giving this prophecy the meaning you are speaking
about, does not make it a prophecy about Jesus. No sir; as wrong as you are
about the prophecy, so wrong are you about my thoughts about it. But I want to
close with this thread as far as I am concerned. You created an opportunity to
herewith close on a positive note.
Daniel’s prophecies are about the Christ. That does
not make the Book understandable to me. I admit I do not understand Daniel’s
prophecies. Except that I know if one does not find Christ in them, one has not
found anything of worth in them.
My main objection to the WCs’ and SDAs’ abuse of the
70 weeks prophecy is that they have ALREADY given the 70 weeks its meaning in
that they say it means 70x7=490 YEARS. Now they create their OWN prophecy, and
turn the 490 YEARS, back into seven-days WEEKS … and even days! That is plain
arbitrariness; it is not God-fearing searching CHRIST in the prophecy, BUT
THEIR OWN SCHEMING in their abuse of the prophecy!
Then there also is the dry as gravel in Gilboa’s
desert of dividing their phantom of the 70th week-of-YEARS, into two halves of
a week’s DAYS. Now if you want to go so far in your literalness then you should
go ALL THE WAY IN LITERALNESS and divide the week precisely, and you will end
up with a 6 a.m., crucifixion and not a late afternoon crucifixion-death. The
whole affair is not funny; it’s sacrilegious and very stupid.
But that is a minor compared to prefer such nonsense
to the abundance of plain Scriptures with direct and literal relevance to the
day of the week and of the passover, and to its hour, when Jesus was crucified
---which to me is MOST offensive and an insult to my and anybody else’s
Christian Faith and intellect.
So I’ll again try to end this debate on a positive
note and say that Jesus Christ should be the ESSENCE AND SUBSTANCE of one’s
understanding of Daniel’s 70 weeks prophecy. At the same time I shall again
confess I have not found the meaning of Daniel’s prophecies and don’t think I
ever shall. I’ll be honest about it—which will be the positive I herewith want
to end with.
Kevin:
Daniel 9 doesn't have a double meaning, it has a
triple application/meaning.
1. That he would die in the midst of the last seven
years of the 490 year prophecy.
2. That he would die in the literal midst of the week,
Wednesday, the fourth day of the seven day week.
3. That he would die in the midst of the seven
thousand year week.
He died at the end of the fourth thousandth year.
Have you ever wondered why God waited almost 4,000
years to send Jesus? This is why.
Those who fully grasp the meaning of "this"
will be blown away.
GE:
Daniel 9 is IRRELEVANT. Anybody believing Daniel 9 has
anything to do with the day of the week Jesus Died on, is mad as were his
brains <blown away> with a buckshot.
Kevin:
1. That he
would die in the midst of the last seven years of the 490 year prophecy.
GE:
There is no such thing anywhere in the Bible as a
<<490 year prophecy>>.
Kevin:
He would die in the literal midst of the week,
Wednesday, the fourth day of the seven day week.
GE:
That Christ <<would die in the literal midst of the week, Wednesday, the fourth day
of the seven day week>> does
not exist anywhere in the Scriptures.
<<…the
literal midst of the … seven day … week…>>
Work that out for us, <literally>— that is,
EXACTLY! Do your arithmetic on this page, let’s see it! You can’t even divide 7
by 2, What reckon Christ’s moment of death from 490 garbled years!
Kevin:
1. That he would die in the midst of the last seven
years …
2. That he would die in the literal midst of the week…
3. That he would die in the midst of the seven
thousand year week.
GE:
WHICH was it,
<<in the
midst of (the last??) seven years>>; or,
<<in the (literal??) midst of the week>>; or,
<<in the
midst of the seven thousand (year??)
week>>?
And from WHERE?! From Daniel 9?!
Does Daniel write of <<seven years>>?—No!
Does Daniel write of <<seven literal weeks>>?—No, say YOU!
Does Daniel write of <<seven thousand years weeks>>?—No, Daniel says No!
Kevin:
He died at the end of the fourth thousandth year.
GE:
Christ died at the end of no year; He died on the
fourteenth day of the First Month of the first calendar year the Jews ever had.
And it is written that “THAT DAY BONE-DAY … they had
to kill the passover”, occurred “at the end of 430 years”—not <<at the end of the fourth thousandth year>>.
Which <<fourth thousandth year>>?!
It’s not even funny; it’s killingly boring, so silly are your ‘prophetic
insights’.
Kevin:
Have you ever wondered why God waited almost 4,000
years to send Jesus? This is why…
GE:
Uncontrollable madness! Who would ever wonder about
such nonsense and lying but an insane fool?
http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/seventh-day-adventist/TCMT0QQAME27RFJT4/p197
Steenberg:
What a funny name for a fellowship! And you do not
want to grow or mix with sinners! Are only you and your wife the “members”? I
will see you and bring my whole family with. You have a few questions to answer
to....going back a while.
GE:
'Sabbaths' Feast of Christ Home Assemblies' the name,
consists each word and phrase, of PURE SCRIPTURE -- Scripture of course being
something you obviously find ridiculous.
'Sabbaths' Feast of Christ Home Assemblies' have NO
members, everyone of us being a member of “THE BODY OF CHRIST” and “of Christ's
Own”. Let never one word in pride come over our lips. But may we boast in the
LORD Jesus Christ “THE SUBSTANCE ... and NOURISHMENT ministered ... holding to
HIM THE HEAD, the Body growing with the growth of God” ... until the Lord Jesus
comes again, o God, my home, my wife, my son, my daughters and my grand
children.
It is obvious from the word go, what the greatest
temptation for the Sabbaths' Feast of Christ Home Assemblies, is -- already is,
and always, will be.
Kevin:
What it really says is, “after the sabbaths, as it
began to dawn
towards the first of the sabbaths.
GE:
No! What it really says is 'opse' -- “LATE” -- “late
ON Sabbath” -- 'opse sabbatOHN' -- “Sabbath'S-time'.
Cf LXX: Genesis 24:11, ‘Kai ekoimate tas kamehlous
eksoh tehs poleohs para to phrear tou hudatos to pros OPSE hehnika ekporeuontai
hoi hudreuomenai.’ “The servant of Abraham rested his camels without the city
by the water well towards evening / late afternoon when the young women go to
draw water.”
Exodus 30:8, ‘Hotan eksaptehi Aarohn tous luchnous _opse_,
thumiasei ep’ autou’. “When Aaron kindles the lamps late in day / towards
evening, he shall offer upon it”.
Isaiah 5:11, ‘Ouai hoi egeiromenoi toprohï kai to
sikera diohkontes, hoi menontes te _opse_, ho gar oinos autous sunkaúsei.’ “Woe
to the early risers to drink strong drink, to the late cravers for wine to
inflame them.”
Jeremiah 2:23, ‘Ide tas hodous sou en tohi _poluandrioh_
kai gnohthi ti epoiehsan: _opse_ phohneh autehs ohlolukse tas hodous autehs
eplatunen eph- hudata erehmou.’ “Behold thy ways in death’s valley and know
what thou hast done—her voice howled broadcasting late abroad her adultery.”
Bird:
Wednesday Crucifixion is a False belief that Satan has
deceived people to believe.
GE:
You have never read anything. Yet it is true what you
say.
Nevertheless you just refer to the rear end of the
porcupine on the attack. On the attack the porcupine's front end is its sharp
end. And the first Christian politician knew that very well. So he let slip the
loop of his lasso pole from the rear end to the sharp end over the porcupine 's
spines and strangled him at the throat. You know what I mean?
No? Well Justin Martyr started the present universally
accepted corruption in Matthew 28:1---the sharp end of our present thorny
issue. Said he before anybody else, Jesus was Crucified the day before the day
of Saturn and was Raised on
the Day after the day of Saturn on the day of the Sun.
Steenberg:
Satan worked through the Catholics, not only to teach
you about a false TRINITY, but also to convince you that the resurrection
occurred on Sunday morning so you can celebrate :the Lord's day” and forget
about the Sabbath! Catch? Google Fred Coulter for the most accurate, moment by
moment countdown to the WEDNESDAY late afternoon crucifixion and get the
settled in you mind once for all! Do that even before you attack the turkey.
Happy Thanksgiving!
GE:
Please say something out of your own?! Something other
than about turkeys.
Rubies:
You still mashing your gums to yourself Gerhard?
Nobody's interested any more.
GE:
... says she who does not know a thing ... It is not
for a lack of
interest or disinterest; it is a matter of lack of
knowledge and humbleness to admit the substance of the Day-of-Substance in
Jesus’ Last Passover. It is a matter with people like you, Rubies, of pride
hurt and disdain for purity and simplicity of Biblical truth. Because it
touches upon your Holy Sunday.
My book about you is taking on shape. For substance
though, I had to bring in others in other places to the discussion.
What stands out so far, is the only defence deniers of
Jesus' Burial Day has : their sheer denial of and refusal to declare ignorance
in the issue. Seeing they pretend blind --- it is YOUR 'argument', sissie,
yours…: <...it does not exist...">.
Nothing ‘new’ yet because nothing ‘new’ will ever come out of empty denial.
But the whole world is TAKING NOTICE already ... you -
faked Rubies - just don't know, once again.
Let’s PLEASE call it a day!?
Addendum Bone-Day Religious
Forums
The Lost Passover
Bone-Day [etsem yom]
incidences
Bone-Day [etsem yom]
incidences
…in Genesis …
Genesis 7
“11 In THE SAME DAY [HADZEH YOM] all the fountains of
the great deep were broken up … 13 in THE SELFSAME WHOLE DAY BONE DAY [etsem
yom] entered Noah … into the ark.” “…in the selfsame whole day bone day… [etsem
yom] …as when in the days of Noah an ark was being prepared the longsuffering
of God waited wherein souls through watery [grave] were saved … by the
Resurrection of Christ… For Christ has once suffered for [our] sins that He
might bring us to God, He being put to death in the flesh but quickened by the
Spirit.” 1Peter 3:20,21,18.
Genesis 17
“23 Abraham circumcised the flesh of their foreskin in
THE
SELFSAME WHOLE DAY BONE DAY [etsem yom] as God
had said unto him …7 I will establish my covenant
between
me and thee and thy Seed [Christ]… 26 in THE SELFSAME
WHOLE DAY BONE DAY [etsem yom] (stricken in age) Abraham was circumcised… And
the LORD appeared unto him… pass not away from thy servant… wash your feet and
rest yourself under the tree… Abraham fetched a calf… a young man hasted to
dress it… And [the LORD] stood by them and they did eat. And [the LORD] said, I
will certainly return unto thee according to the time of life; and lo, (waxed
old) Sarah thy wife shall have a son… at the appointed time I
shall return.”
.
Genesis 50
“20 God meant to bring to pass as it is THIS DAY to
save
much people alive. 21 Now fear ye not : I will nourish
you and your little ones. And he comforted them and spake kindly to them. 24
And Joseph said unto his brethren, I DIE : and God will surely visit you and
bring you out of this land unto the land which He sware unto Abraham, to Isaac
and to Jacob. 25 And Joseph took an oath of the children of Israel, saying, God
will surely visit you, and ye shall carry up from hence my BONES—26 SO JOSEPH DIED
being an hundred and ten years old : and [having been buried in a grave] they
embalmed him, and he was PUT IN A COFFIN in Egypt…”
The Book of Genesis ended with Joseph’s burial day and
future care of his bones—fulfilled in the Book of Exodus.
Bone-Day [etsem yom]
incidences
…in Exodus …
Exodus 12
“17 Ye shall observe the feast of unleavened bread for
in THIS SELFSAME WHOLE DAY BONE DAY [etsem yom] have I brought your armies out
of the land of Egypt: therefore shall ye observe THIS DAY… by an ordinance for
ever 18 in the fourteenth day of the (First) Month (6 Israel shall kill the
passover)... strike the lintel and the two side posts with the blood and none
of you shall go out of his house… 23 For the LORD will pass through to smite [with the plague] the
Egyptians… The LORD will pass over and will not suffer the destroyer to come
unto your houses to smite you.”
Exodus 12
“41 Even THIS SELFSAME WHOLE DAY BONE DAY [etsem yom]
it came to pass that all the hosts of the LORD went out from the land of
Egypt—42 it is a NIGHT to be much observed unto the LORD for bringing them out
from the land of Egypt : THIS IS THAT NIGHT
of the LORD… 43 THIS IS THE ORDINANCE OF THE PASSOVER… 46 In one house
shall it be eaten; thou shalt not carry forth ought of
the flesh abroad out of the house; neither shall ye
BREAK /
SEVER A BONE thereof.
8 they shall EAT the flesh in THAT NIGHT roast with
FIRE… not raw nor cooked with water but roast with FIRE; head with legs and
with the purtenance thereof… 10 and that which remain the next day ye shall
BURN WITH FIRE … 12 I will pass through THIS NIGHT … the PLAGUE shall not be
upon you.”
Exodus 12
“51 It came to pass THE SELFSAME WHOLE DAY BONE DAY
[etsem yom] that the lord did bring the children of
13 God led the people about through the way of the
wilderness of the Red Sea… and Moses took the BONES of Joseph with him for he
had straitly sworn the children of Israel, saying, God will surely visit you;
and ye shall carry up my BONES away hence with you.”
The Book of Genesis ended with Joseph’s burial day and
future care of his bones—fulfilled in the Book of Exodus.
Now Exodus ends with an apocalyptic vision of Christ’s
bones and day of burial…
Exodus 24:10 They saw the God of Israel: and under his
feet as it were a paved work of sapphire stone [having been] THE SELFSAME WHOLE
DAY BONE DAY [etsem yom] as it were the
body of heaven in his clearness …
Exodus 14:5,4 THIS DAY [of ‘etsem yom’] came ye out in
the month Abib… by Strength of Hand the LORD brought you out from this place
(of death) where no Bread of Life shall be eaten.
The Book of Genesis as fulfilled in the passover in
Exodus is seen further expanded upon and added to in Leviticus …
Bone-Day [etsem yom]
incidences
…in Leviticus …
Leviticus 23:
“21 Ye shall proclaim on THE SELFSAME WHOLE DAY
BONE DAY [etsem yom] … as ye shall REAP … the corners
of thy field… 10 When ye shall reap … ye shall BRING a sheaf of the firstfruits
unto the priest and on the day after the sabbath [it rested over] the priest
shall wave the sheaf before the LORD to be accepted for you 14 …the very
selfsame Whole Day Bone Day [ad hadzeh etsem yom] that ye have brought an
offering [of the passover lamb].
“14 The very selfsame Whole Day Bone Day” [ad hadzeh
etsem yom] encompassed…
“9 The LORD spake unto Moses…
“5 In the fourteenth day is the LORD’S passover
First addition: “sabbath rest
day”
“6 and on the FIFTEENTH DAY of the month is the FEAST…
“Seven days unleavened bread ye shall eat…
“7 In the first day is holy convocation…
“no servile work shall ye do.
“10 In it (is) a sabbath rest day [of the first
sheaf]…
Second addition: “first sheaf
of firstfruits”
“11 On the day after the sabbath the priest shall wave
it—the first sheaf.”
“Three days thick darkness” encompassed “the very
selfsame
Whole Day Bone Day” [ad hadzeh etsem yom]” of the
First Sheaf.
The First Sheaf rested over in the darkness of death
and grave “on the sabbath that day great day sabbath”, “the fifteenth day of
the First Month” and “sabbath in between” of the passover, the day between “the
fourteenth day the very Bone-Day that ye brought an offering (of sacrifice) and
reaped and brought your sheaf, and “the day after the sabbath” when “the Priest
wave(d) the First Sheaf”—
“on the sixteenth day of the First Month (when) they
finished to cleanse the sanctuary”.
Third addition: “fifty days”
“From… the day after the sabbath”—“the sabbath day”
after
“the selfsame bone-day” that the first sheaf was
“reaped from the corners of thy field” and was “brought to the priest” to rest
over “the sabbath day” before it would be “wave(d) on the day after the
sabbath” … “from the day after the sabbath begin count” FIFTY DAYS to Shavuot /
Pentecost!
“The LORD spake to Moses… 11 On the day after the
sabbath the Priest shall wave the First Sheaf”—
“on the sixteenth day of the First Month they finished
to cleanse the sanctuary.”
“15 Ye shall count from the day…” on which the LORD
vanquished the darkness of the plague.
The LORD of the “three days thick darkness” of the
plague, “on the third day”, “finished”.
“From the day after the (passover) sabbath, begin
count!” It does not say begin count after the day after the sabbath; and it
does not say begin count from the sabbath. The LORD commanded “count from /
with / on the day after the sabbath.”
Fourth addition ‘Yom Kippur’
to “THIS THAT VERY SELFSAME WHOLE DAY BONE DAY [etsem
yom]” : Yom Kippur Day of Atonement Day of Judgment—mid-year’s Little Passover.
“46 That your generations may know that I made the
children
of
“27 …on the tenth day of the Seventh Month
“28 …ye shall do no work in “THAT SAME WHOLE DAY BONE
DAY [etsem yom]
“29 For whatsoever soul it be that shall not be
AFFLICTED IN THAT SAME WHOLE DAY BONE DAY [etsem yom], he shall be cut off from
among his people
“30 and whatsoever soul it be that doeth any work in
THAT SAME WHOLE DAY BONE DAY [etsem yom], the same soul I will destroy.”
“THREE DAYS thick darkness” which in Exodus coincided
on and converged in and merged with “THIS THE SELFSAME WHOLE DAY BONE DAY
[etsem yom]”, “great day sabbath” of the passover of Yahweh and the “goings
out” of Israel out of Egypt, in Leviticus coincided on and converged in and
merged with “this the…” three times: “selfsame whole day BONE DAY [etsem yom]”
on the one day and “shabbath shabbathon … Day of Affliction and Atonement”, of
Yahweh who dwells “among his People”, the children of Israel who now
“tabernacled”, “in, the land the LORD had sworn”— so “that your generations may
know that I-AM-THE-LORD your God and that I made the children of Israel to
dwell in booths WHEN I BROUGHT THEM OUT of the land of Egypt.”
Noteworthy is it that the fifteenth day of the First
Month and the tenth day of the Seventh Month were both on the Sixth Day of the
week, and that in both feasts “the day after the sabbath” of the feast, was
“the Seventh Day Sabbath OF THE LORD GOD”. In neither case “the day after the
sabbath” of the feast, was on the First Day of the week.
Therefore, by counting the single-day pertaining to
the tenth day of the Seventh Month thrice called “the selfsame whole day BONE
DAY [etsem yom]” as incidences relating to the matter at hand, the Passover of
Yahweh which was the first and main and original feast of Israel and the LORD
of Israel from which all subsequent feasts evolved, the number of incidences of
the use of the phrase ‘etsem yom’ applicable to the passover, stands at 9 out
of 12, or, 75%. But taking into account the 3, 4, proleptic, anticipating and
prospective instances of ‘etsem yom’ in Genesis 7, 17 and 50, the number of
incidence of its use for “the selfsame whole day BONE DAY [etsem yom]” of the
PASSOVER, is 12, 13 out of 12, 13 or 100%. Nevertheless <people
who actually have functional facility with Hebrew tell you> it
<does not>, and, <never, existed> and that <there is no such thing as ‘bone-day’>.
So; let us go on …
Later and Institutionalised instances of the use of ‘etsem yom’ …in
Numbers, Deuteronomy and Joshua …
…in Numbers, Deuteronomy and
Joshua …
Numbers…
The words “bone” – ‘etsem’ and “day” – ‘yom’ do not
occur in a closed phrase in Numbers.
The most significant incidence in chapter 9:12 (Exodus
12:46) of ‘etsem’, “break / sever no bone of it” (John 19:36), bears upon a
fourteenth day of the First Month though, postponed to the fourteenth day of
the Second Month, but nevertheless “(kept) according to ALL the ordinances of
the passover … on THAT DAY…”, “…THE DAY THAT the tabernacle (‘mishkan’ - place
/ rest-bed) —the tent (‘ohel’ - ‘covering’)—was reared over the ark (‘aron’ -
“coffin”) of the testimony.” 9:9,12; 7:89.
“Thou broughtest up this people IN THY MIGHT from
among the Egyptians!” It was “the Whole-Day the Selfsame BONE-DAY” of the
passover, that the tabernacle was first reared over the mercy seat over the ark
of the testimony and the Cloud of the Presence of the LORD was upon and “as the
appearance of FIRE” covered withal, verse 15.
Numbers 9 contains an absolute incidence of the
Bone-Day of the passover, therefore. And so we have 14 out of 14 incidences of
“Bone-Day” being the passover’s day of the Dead being Buried—100%!
In Numbers 19 there is the clear connection with the
word ‘etsem’ - “BONE… One SLAIN…”, and “GRAVE”, verse 18.
In Numbers 24:8, “God brought
shall break the BONES of his enemies and PIERCE them
through with his arrows.” “Bones” and passover are
together once again, even the day that they pierced the side of Jesus but broke
no bone of his!
Virtually every incidence of ‘etsem’ - “bone”, and the
dark day(s) of Israel when the LORD brought them out of Egypt, are of the
essence, so much so that the final days in which Israel passed over out of the
wilderness into the land the LORD had sworn to bring them into, are identical
in
Deuteronomy 32:48 and Joshua
5:11.
“The LORD spake unto Moses THE SELFSAME BONE-DAY
(#15), saying, Get thee up into this mountain… and behold the land of Canaan…
and DIE in the mount and be gathered unto thy people [that is, be BURIED]… So
Moses died there and the LORD BURIED HIM.
“The LORD spake unto Joshua, My servant. Moses, is
DEAD.
Now therefore arise, GO OVER this Jordan… Then Joshua
commanded… PREPARE, for WITHIN THREE DAYS ye shall pass over this
The people came up out of
The passover therefore had four days which were
“BONE-DAY”, but most important was “the fourteenth day” as seen in the examples
above. And in Joshua “after the passover on the fourteenth day of the (First)
Month, the fifteenth day of the First Month—without saying—, was “the Selfsame
BONE-DAY (they) did eat unleavened cakes”. Joshua 5:11,12.
So all “three days thick darkness” of the ninth and
tenth plagues, plus “the tenth day of the First Month”, were “the Selfsame
BONE-DAY” : BECAUSE OF BEING DAYS OF THE PASSOVER OF YAHWEH—17 out of 17 times.
So far in the Pentateuch all occurrences of the Hebrew
phrase, ‘etsem-yom’—“Bone-Day”, were PASSOVER BURIAL DAY occurrences. Yet the
learned say it does not exist. It does not exist?! It exists! It exists, 100%
as the BURIAL-DAY of the passover of Yahweh, the fourteenth and fifteenth
day(s) of the First Month most pertinently.
Ben Masada:
Jesus missed the Passover that year.
Sword:
Wrong Ben, that year, Jesus was the Paschal
Lamb who was slaughtered on the day of Preparation to that Passover.
GE:
'Bone-Day' --- Hebrew, ‘etsem-yom’, 18 incidences, at
least 13 of with regard to the exodus passover --- has never been translated.
The Septuagint rendered the phrase with a Relative
Pronoun, ‘hehmera ekeineh’ – ‘that day’.
Jerome translated ‘that day’ of the LXX into the
Vulgate.
Wycliffe translated ‘that day’ of the Vulgate into his
translation; and Tyndale translated “that day” of the Textus
Receptus, into his translation.
The KJV used “the selfsame day” for ‘that day’ of
Tyndale.
Noteworthy, the KJV does not use “the selfsame day”
for the feasts in the Seventh Month, but
“that same day” --- three times.
Were believers through 23 centuries the poorer for
translations’ loss at translating the Hebrew
‘etsem-yom’, properly?
It is my opinion that they were.
JAY:
Not all opinions are created equal.
Fay:
Can you cite the verse please?
Rabbi:
One gets the impression that you haven't read the
entire thread.
Fay:
Again, Could you cite the verse? One, is not
impressed.
I still cannot find this occurrence
"etsem-yom" in any verse, so
anyone that could point me specifically to these
occurrences of "etsem-yom", it would be appreciated.
I can find cognates, however, but nothing specifically of
"etsem-yom", being compounded in such a way.
Sword:
You are correct in assuming that the gospel according
to the
written words of John the beloved disciple who was the
only one of the four authors of the gospels to have walked and talked with
Jesus is the only account that is correct. And according to John, the last
supper was simply that, the last supper, that Jesus had with his closest
friends, before the day
of Preparation to the Passover, the day on which
the Paschal
lambs of which Jesus was the reality, were
slaughtered.
GE:
You may safely believe no
Gospels differ and no Gospel
is incorrect.
According to all four Gospels, the Last Supper was the
first
“Lord’s Supper” 1Corinthians 11:23 –
“before the Feast” John 13:1
“day of Preparation to the Passover”, John 19:14
“the first day (of passover) on which the Paschal
lambs were slaughtered” Mark 14:12,17 Matthew 26:17,20 Luke 22:7,14 John
13:1,30 1Corinthians 11:23 – “of which Jesus was the
reality” (Colossians 2:17).
Thus Jesus instituted the Holy Communion before He
died BECAUSE: correct,
Make your own conclusions, I bet they will amount to
Thursday Crucified; Friday Buried, Sabbath Resurrected. Because?
Because Burial was "the selfsame WHOLE DAY
BONE-DAY" of the passover, Abib 15, "The Preparation which is
the Fore-Sabbath" -- 'Friday' all day the whole day.
Disciple:
strange..
Rosends:
The word etzem means "the essence of a
thing" so it refers to bones of a person and the essential timing or
aspect of a moment or idea.
GE:
I would rather say the word ‘etzem’, means “bone(s)”,
so it
refers to ‘the essence of thing(s)’ <<and the essential timing
or aspect of a moment or idea>>!
Rosends:
It is used in conjunction with the word
"hayom" (THE day) in the form of etzem once in the 5 books of Moses
(Lev 23:14), in the form of b'etzem (with the b- prefix indicating in/on/at) 11
times. The first is Gen 7:13 referring to the specific day on which Noah and
his family entered the ark. It is never simply written as "etzem
yom." The word's meaning is dependent on the context and object, so its
use changes and meaning when referring to "day" is different from
"sky" (cf Ex 24:10 where it means "appearance") and from
"strength" (Job 21:23). Assuming it means "bone" in
relation to day is inaccurate as it operates as an adjective, not a noun.
Disciple:
So, by not writing 'bone day', is it an omission that
this was not a universally practiced custom?
Rosends:
I don't know what "geh-tzem" is. There is no
gimel in etsem.
GE:
And I don’t know what a
<gimel> is—, a ‘g’?
But as far I am in my ignorance able to distinguish,
<"geh-tzem">—the way
Wigram’s enters it—simply is a matter of transliteration of <‘etsem’>—the way Young’s enters it …
‘it’— the Hebrew NOUN for “BONE(S)”.
Rosends:
I don't know what your English concordances do what
you
claim they do. Why aren't you using a Hebrew one?
There is no such thing as "bone-day". The phrasal construct in Hebrew
has a word which, when used as a noun refers to "bone" but which
means "essence, specific" when used as an adjective.
You can't read a book by a "light beer" even though
"light" when used as a noun, is something which illuminates. As an
adjective, it means something else.
Disciple:
'Light beer' is referring to beer, that's not a very
good analogy. Also, just because something can have two 'meanings' doesn't mean
one is exclusive over the other. 'Light beer' is not a good description for a
strong ale. Since there are two meanings, at least, your reasoning seems a tad
subjective to me.
GE:
<…when used
as a noun refers to "bone"…>—a Noun; <…but which means "essence, specific">—both Nouns: <…when used as an adjective>?!?! <As an adjective, it (<etsem>) means something else> than <bone> --- <something
else> like what?! Like which or what <adjective>?!
No wonder Rosends, you admit you <don't know what "geh-tzem" is>!
Rosends:
Light beer is the "light" adjective
referring to beer. It is not the noun "light" connected to beer. It
is more than just having 2 meanings -- it is having a different meaning when
used as a different part of speech. I could make the same point with word
"flat" -- a flat is noun meaning (among other things) an apartment,
but when used in front of the word "tire" (as an adjective) it means
something else. parts of speech matter in translating. You can pat me on the
back, but my order does not have a back when there is a back order. And by the
way, light beer.
Levite:
Seriously?! "Bone day?!"
Rosends:
The root ע.צ.מ. has several
different meanings, of which
"bone" is only one. When used in the
adjective form construction with a following noun, such as in the phrase
בעצם היום, or
בעצם השמים, or בעצם
תמו, always has the significance of "the very
thing" or "the thing itself," as in בעצם
היום הזה, "this very day,"
or בעצם השמים, "the
very heavens," or בעצם תמו,
"in his very innocence."
If there were going to be such a ridiculous construction as "bone
day," it would take a different form altogether, יום
העצמות, yom ha-atzamot, "day of
the bones." That construction is pretty much universal in standard phrases
like "such and such day."
Brick:
That had me going. Got me.
GE:
<That
construction is pretty much universal in standard phrases like "such and
such day.">
Substantiate!
And substantiate with Bible Text!
‘ghee-tzem yom’ in
Exodus 12
17 ‘gheetzem ha-yom hezeg’: “in-the-bone-of”
‘gheetzem’; “the day” ‘ha-yom’; “this the same” ‘heezeg’
41 ‘gheetzem ha-yom hazeg’: “in-the-bone-of”
‘gheetzem’; “the-day” ‘ha-yom’; “the same” ‘hazeg’
42 ‘layiel’ “night of”; ‘hu-ha-layiel huha’ “it the
night exact /
selfsame the”
51 ‘gheetzem ha-yom hahu’: “in-the-bone-of”
‘gheetzem’;
“the day” ‘ha-yom’; “the selfsame / exact” ‘hahu’
..meaning exactly the opposite of <such and such a
day>
... meaning exactly exclusively "the
Whole-Day" = "The
Selfsame Day" = the
PASSOVER'S—“ESSENTIAL-Day”—"Bone-Day" "the fourteenth day of the
First Month" (in Exodus) = "the fifteenth day of the First
Month" (in all
subsequent Scriptures).
Without exception 'etsem-yom' has bearing on a, in
some sense or another, BURIAL day.
The concept and use of the phraseology have survived its
extinct translation in the Scriptures in e.g., 'Obituary' or
"Boneday"; 'Cemetery' / 'Graveyard' or "Bone-yard"; Chillian
deadly potent 'Bone-Day' brew.
Exodus 12:14 "this day ye shall keep a
feast" is "the Selfsame"--"BONE-Day" in Leviticus 23:
"that ye have brought an offering (of sacrifice)": "the
fourteenth day of the First Month" Exodus 12:6 Leviticus 23:5.
Which is "the Essential Same Day WHOLE-Day when ye REAP the harvest of
your land the corners of your field", "and BRING a (First) Sheaf to
the priest" which the priest "accept(ed) and the day after the
sabbath (of the passover feast, Abib 15) shall wave".
Shalom:
Thanks for sharing
GE:
Exodus 12:14 does not have 'etsem' at all --- correct.
Exodus 12:14 being "the fourteenth day of the
First Month" Exodus 12:6, 18 Numbers 9:3,5;28:16 Joshua 5:10, and
Leviticus 23:5 being "the fourteenth day of the First Month",
both Scriptures speak of "The Selfsame --
Essentially-the-WHOLE-Day-Bone-Day" of passover.
I therefore mean Ex 12:17 and Lev 23:14 point… to a
specific day on the calendar… ‘etzem’ meaning "that very", it is “The
Selfsame -- Essentially-the-WHOLE-Day-Bone-Day" OF PASSOVER, “the fourteenth day of the First Month” …
<On the
calendar> --- Correct.
Now verse 42, not having the word ‘etsem’ at all, but
referring to “that night” of the fourteenth in Exodus 12:8,29,31,42, it is
“this that NIGHT”, OF, "The Selfsame -- Essentially-the-
WHOLE-Day-Bone-Day" of passover. Exodus
12:17,51.
The LXX in fact has “that very NIGHT” in verse 41 for
the Hebrew, “etsem YOM” – “Bone-DAY”.
Rosends:
So you see that etzem means "that very" but
still insert "bone" into your reading which means that the word has
to mean 2 different things and operate as two different parts of speech,
simultaneously?
GE:
No; and, Yes.
No—, "that very" being indicated with OTHER
words than <etzem>; and Yes, "that very" being indicated with
<etzem> - “bone”, AS WELL! Exactly, just like you were doing in your
remark I am now replying to. With this difference, that I am not <inserting> any word or words like you
do but aver I do, but use this simple principle, that if a equals b and b
equals c, then a = c.
Exodus 12:51, “ON THE BONE
THE DAY THIS (VERY DAY) Yahweh BROUGHT
So are verses 41 and 42 speaking of "the selfsame
day BONE-Day" : "night" AND, "day”—
“the-selfsame-day-WHOLE-Day-of-Essence-and-BONE-the-SAME-Day”—“ACCORDING TO THE
SCRIPTURES”— ‘the God-given and therefore eschatological imperative WHOLE AND
WHOLENESS’[*Lohmeyer] of it which historically was "THICK DARKNESS"
indistinguishable "three days" of the two last plagues within and
upon the Land-of-Darkness, Egypt, IN ONE: “The Great Day of the LORD”
and “Passover of Yahweh” IN WHICH HE
BROUGHT ISRAEL OUT. Exodus chapter 15!
Levite:
Are you joking? Do you not actually understand how
language works? There is no "bone day." The idea is beyond
ludicrous.
When the root is expressed as a noun it means "bone." When it is
expressed as an adjective, it means "the very thing," or "the
thing itself." Just because the same letters make up the root does not
mean that "that very day" means "bone day," any more than,
say, the prophet Ezekiel had a vision of reanimating dry "thing-itselfs."
You cannot just decide, because you think it would be neat, or have some sort
of cool and mysterious significance, that words actually mean whatever you
think they ought to mean based on your speculations over some open
concordances.
You have now had a few people who actually have functional facility with Hebrew
tell you that you are wrong. If it helps, I actually have advanced degrees in
Jewish Studies and Rabbinic Literature, and I can promise you, there is no such
thing as "bone day." It's just painfully, cringe-worthily, incorrect.
Avi:
This may be a first, Gerhard......but I am actually
going to have to agree with Levite on this......why are you giving us line and
verse repeatedly from Exodus and Leviticus to prove that Passover
is...."Bone Day"...?...my G-d...who would care anyway ???
Can we step back....for a moment....and you tell us what you are up to??....are
you trying to disprove Torah scripture ??...if so...it seems like an illogical
approach....it would be a strawman strategy....is that your game Gerhard
???....on the other hand... with a name like "Gerhard"....are you a
"True Scotsman", Gerhard ??
GE:
<When the
root is expressed as a noun it means "bone." When
it is expressed as an
adjective, it means "the very thing," or "the thing
itself.">
Denied! The root ‘gehtzem’ / ‘etsem’ is one noun which
means "bone" and <is
expressed as> a NOUN EACH time it occurs in the phrase ‘etsem-yom’ that
as the NAME of the day refers to and means, “Bone-Day”. In most cases the two
‘roots’ or independent words, ‘etsem’ – “bone” and ‘yom’ – “day” concur with
OTHER adjectival words like Articles or Pronouns or Prepositions which may <mean "the very thing" or "the
thing itself"> but are not, <the
thing itself> or <the very
(same) thing>.
“Bone-Day” or “the” : “Bone-Day” : or “the selfsame” :
“Bone-Day” or whatever, the two <roots>
viz., the two words—two Substantives—are, ‘etsem’ – “bone”, and, ‘yom’ –
“day”—two NOUNS. They cannot be confused for anything else and are not
themselves also those other words-prefixes and or words-suffixes which in the
incedences of their occurrence are applied before or and after them. They ought
to be understood for what they mean in and by themselves—not for what 2300
years of neglect and oblivion have reduced their single, combined, meaning to
--- which reduction has reached meaninglessness.
In other words, the Hebrew expression ‘etsem-yom’ for
the “Bone-Day” of the Passover of Yahweh must be RESTORED to its first-ever,
passover-meaning, and be redeemed from its nonsensical ‘dynamic-equivalent’ –
that is – its only for modern society known and understandable meaning.
Mere parts of speech --- Nouns, Verbs, Adjectives etc.
--- are
not what constitute language; they are only the bricks
the
house of language are built with. In the foundations
and floors
as well as in the walls of bricks, there are
reinforcements of
steel --- the Syntax and Idiom of any language.
Syntax and Idiom include words and phrases. Such as
"bone"
plus "day" are not just isolated words, one
a Noun, the other also a Noun. As much and as good as 'bone' can be
considered the Adjective, as much and as good can 'day' be considered the
Adjective IN THE NOMENCLATURE-PHRASE; "Bone-Day".
One learns about Nouns and Adjectives before grade
three at school; one learns about LIVING LANGUAGE for the rest of one's life be
one a plumber [like myself] or a Professor in Learning [like my best friend
is]. And my best friend will be the first to tell you [long before I
would] he is every day of his life learning more about things he never could
have dreamed existed or were possible.
I am the person here who READ Torah Scripture, and
QUOTE Torah Scripture and THINK Torah Scripture and INTERPRET Torah Scripture
--- but am seen as applying <illogical
approach> and <strawman
strategy> as if that is my <game>.
I am not playing games; I take GOD’S WORD seriously; I’m taking it literally;
and I’m studying it as a LIVING REALITY, not as a dead letter or dead letters
constituting mere separated dead words or mixed up dead bones, but alive,
word-groupings and sensible sentences of “BONE” and “SUBSTANCE” like Ezekiel’s
dead bones resurrected to life again.
I do NOT boast having <actual… functional facility with Hebrew>. I depend totally on
actual great scholars who do have <actual
functional facility with Hebrew> unbiased and unprejudiced and objective
and pertinent, who tell me just what I am quoting from them who just are
quoting from the Torah and nothing else.
So, whether you <actually have advanced degrees in Jewish
Studies and Rabbinic
Literature> or not,
this sewer theologian and back-bush rhetorician as I am being called, am
telling you, you LIKE ALL your colleagues <in Jewish Studies and Rabbinic Literature> of the past 2300
years or so, tell that <there is no
such thing as "bone day"> BECAUSE YOU DO NOT CONSULT THE TORAH,
but its translations of the past 2300 years or so. <It's just painfully, cringe-worthily, incorrect> what you do and
what you conclude on strength of what you do or rather do NOT do --- CONSULT
AND USE, THE TORAH.
Avi:
Psst....hey Gerhard....I detect a wee bit of anger in
them.....bone days......what's up with that ???....are we cool having this
dialectical debate ???.. Anyways....why not switch gears a little
here....Gerhard...is that a German or Austrian name ?? And, if you don't mind
my asking...where do you live Gerhard ?
Levite:
This isn't an unusual usage or a highly debatable
meaning. This is extremely well-known, and it is so because the meaning is
quite plain from the form, construction, and typical usage structure of the
verses it is found in. What is more, it should be all the less debatable
considering that the OP's proposed meaning is ludicrous. It would make no sense
in Biblical Hebrew, or in the thought and styles of the Biblical era-- for that
matter, it would make no sense in Rabbinic, Medieval, or Modern Hebrew,
either.
This is simply a case of there being a word or root that has two separate
meanings, used differently, but each entirely consistently with itself and its
contexts. At best, you might be able to stretch to make a case for the meaning
of "the very thing" or "the thing itself" as being
originally an idiomatic usage, in the sense of the essence of something being
the bones of the matter. But even that is speculation of the highest order:
much more likely that it is simply a word form that has different meanings--
something that often occurs in many languages. Especially since if there were a
relationship between the meanings, it is likely that there would be a pun made
using the two meanings somewhere in the Tanach-- the Tanach being extremely
fond of punning and other word play-- and there is not.
GE:
The particular and specific, and exceptional use for
100% some figurative or real Burial day say 80 % of which is particularly and
specifically for the real and historic and exceptional and unique day of and
for the interment of the passover sacrifice, de-categorises "etsem
yom" as <pun> or <word play> or hyperbole or pleonasm
or <idiomatic> expression.
"Bone-Day" is a Name for "that great day of the LORD" in
which "healing" was in its wings “THE WHOLE DAY”.
The phraseology “Bone-Day” in the Scriptures it occurs
in, is not <usual usage>—
obviously not. It is specific and totally un-known in the <thought and styles of the Biblical era-- for
that matter…in Rabbinic, Medieval (and) Modern Hebrew>. Quite correct
and certain! Because the phraseology “Bone-Day” in the Scriptures as recent as
2011 only, has been uncovered and made known, and in the three years since has
obtained <highly debatable meaning>
already.
The phraseology “Bone-Day” in the Scriptures it occurs
in, not in the least has been <extremely
well-known>: or specimen would have abounded everywhere in and outside
the Scriptures.
The meaning of “Bone-Day” is quite plain from the
form, construction, and exceptional and SPECIFIC usage and
structure of the verses it is found in, IN THE
SCRIPTURES.
NOT IN ‘translations’ though— where either its meaning
or
form, construction, or exceptional and SPECIFIC usage
or / and structure, in any case, is NEVER found. But wherever used in the
Scriptures in whichever combination or phrasing in whichever order, ‘etsem-yom’
always has something—directly or indirectly but inseparable—to do with the
passover.
Rosends:
The meaning of "b'etzem hayom" is plain from
the form, construction and specific usage. The addition of the notion of
"bone" is pure invention on your part.
GE:
I thought you would say ‘my’, notion of
"bone-day", because has every objection not been against <the notion> of “Bone-Day”? I have never maintained anything else!?
But please help me, and transliterate for me <"b'etzem hayom"> with
English words? Please don’t use translation?
The <plain>,
<usual> and <well known> Relative Pronoun, ‘that’,
‘day’ as found in all translations, is what is <highly debatable> since it says absolutely nothing of the “BONE”
OR SUBSTANCE or ESSENCE or REAL MATTER of “the day” that is “the DAY the
BONE-DAY” of the Text, of the Context, and, of the Content which in every of
the relevant Scriptures is the “Bone-Day” of the Passover of Yahweh---which
“Christ, (was) the SUBSTANCE” of. (Colossians 2:17)
OF COURSE “that day” should be all the less debatable
considering it definitively makes no sense in the Biblical Hebrew in the
context of the Passover of Yahweh, or in the historical thought and worldview
of the children of Israel whom the LORD brought out of Egypt and planted in the
land He swore He would, in the “BONE-DAY” of their being “brought out”.
.
Rosends:
No, it is less debatable because it makes perfect
sense. Because God is pointing to a specific date (in Hebrew that makes
gramma-tical and logical sense -- though you wouldn't know because you don't
know Hebrew) he uses the words for "specific date."
.
GE:
Nobody needs to <know Hebrew> in order to see and understand that <God is pointing to a specific date>.
That is unmistakably clear from the context and the data given, “the fourteenth
day of the First Month”. But you are o so absolutely right, nobody will know,
if he did not <know Hebrew>,
that <God… uses the words for (the) "specific date"> WHICH WAS
THE PASSOVER’S <specific>,
“BONE-DAY”!
And nobody ever has cared before translations began
the perversion in the NEW Testament Scriptures with the clear intention to
DESTROY its existence and influence, THERE!
Here you have NOW laid bare the root-cause of the
discovery of the 2300 years long BURIED and forgotten “Bone-Day” of the
Passover of Yahweh, namely, its denial and frantic escape from, in the
CHRISTIAN Scriptures used among Christians, the New Testament Scriptures.
So— vogue and styles of <the Biblical translations era> for that matter, are of no
consequence whatsoever for finding the “Bone-Day’s” original and New Testament
single, selfsame, old as well as new, MEANING. Your every objection to the OP's
proposed specific religious as well as literal—single—meaning of it, is what is
<ludicrous>.
Rosends:
Actually, the translations and understandings which
have been going strong for 2300+ years are persuasive and the attempt to ignore
the rules of language and invent this "bone day" thing is what is
ludicrous.
GE:
If a case of simply there being a word or root that
has different
meanings, used differently, but each entirely
consistent with
itself and its context, the case of the two words or
roots, “Bone” and “Day” in their PECULIAR OWN construct in the phrase
“Bone-Day” and in their PECULIAR OWN context of the Passover of Yahweh, is the
perfect example of such a word or root or phrase that has <different>, unique, and exclusively
OWN, meaning.
The two words in the combination(s) they are found in,
in the Scriptures, have literal as well as figurative / religious meaning and
significance <at its best>!
Meaning and significance namely, not only of <"the very thing" or "the thing itself">; nor
of “that day” merely; but “Bone-Day” in the sense of the ESSENCE of it— “bones”
of it quite literally being <of the
matter> of <the thing itself>
with regard to the “day” and the “date” of it being <of the matter> of <the
thing itself> --- the “bones” namely of The Killed and The Dead : the
“bones” of the body of Jesus Christ “Our Passover” and “Lamb of God” … which
not in the least, is <speculation>,
but the <MATTER> and “BONE” and
SUBSTANCE and ESSENCE of FAITH --- of Christian Faith— which indeed is THE <MATTER> of much more than simply a
word form or and word-combination that has different meanings and often occurs
in many languages. It does not have <different
meanings> in any other language than the meaning it has in only the
Hebrew of the Torah and Prophets only in the Context and <Matter> of the
Passover of Yahweh.
Rosends:
If one wanted to, one could make an exegetical reading
using the clear adjective as a hidden reference to another sense of the word,
the noun. But this would not make the phrase "bone-day". It would
make the pshat "that very day" with an occluded reference to
something else because of the shared letters עצמ. Ein mikra
yotzeh midei pshuto.
GE:
I just don’t see <the clear adjective (used) as a hidden reference> or, <the noun> <used> in <another sense
of the word> as <the noun>!
I THINK this, is the same as what I see in what you
view and circumscribe in scholarly terms as the 'pun'. In fact if I am not
mistaken because I am not versed in Hebrew. But I would not view it as a
pun, but as the actual direct definite and unmistakable "Feast" :
"Day" of Abib 15 on which the "flesh" of the sacrifice was
eaten "in this that night to be solemnly observed unto the LORD”.
The question remains after all and above all,
WHY no ‘ordinary’ Relative Pronoun or and Article(s)
or and Preposition(s) or combination(s) of Relative Pronoun(s) or and
Article(s) or and Preposition(s) are applied in the 18 specific
Passover-Scriptures,
1) singly, specifically by itself, e.g., “that day” in
hundreds of incidences elsewhere in the Hebrew Scriptures;[*]
or,
2) in any combination with others specifically by
themselves in hundreds more of incidences elsewhere in the Hebrew Scriptures,
e.g. (like you have referred to) “this that very
day”?[*]
But instead the case is that such Articles, Relative
Pronouns and or Prepositions and combinations withal, without exception always,
in every occurrence of them, are applied in closest possible nexus with the
unequivocal Substantival or NOUN-<form>
of the word ‘etsem’ - “bone”, to obtain the equally unequivocal Substantival
meaning of the unique PHRASE, ‘etsem-yom’— which literally as well as
figuratively, specifically and pertinently, stands for the “Bone-Day” of the
PASSOVER of Yahweh and for NOTHING ELSE!
[*See http://biblehub.com/hebrew/beyom_3117.htm Interlinear Hebrew •
Englishman's Hebrew Concordance • Parallel Texts ◄ Leviticus
23:14 ► Leviticus 23 Interlinear]
This – “Bone-Day” – is endemic, dialectic, cultural,
CHRISTIAN, “BEGRIFF”—Christian knowledge and
understanding of knowledge --- newly discovered…
… newly discovered in the <relationship between the meanings>
and USE of the two <words> or <roots>
constituting the single CONCEPT-OF-THE-ESSENCE contained and accumulated in the
Nomenclatural Phrase,
“Bone-Day”…
… the Nomenclatural Phrase (I say), of “Bone-Day”—
which the Tanach in eternity would not have given a thought, because Judokas
and Karatekas don’t give a darn about such to them nonsensical Christian stuff
as Christ’s “Bone-Day”.
Rosends:
What is amazing is that you believe that no one has
gotten this fairly simple pun right for 2300 years, based in scholarship and
exposure to the text in its original, and you, without benefit of reading the
original, have come up with a reading which is the correct one.
Jay:
Exactly: a marriage of arrogance and ignorance
begetting drivel.
GE:
<fairly
simple pun> prerequisites fairly often usage of the pun.
Illustrate it with the pun! Can you come up with ONE
example
from the Scriptures? --- ONE pun? ONE case of the
<pun> "bone-day" even in secular literature? Then please show
me? You are <based in scholarship
and exposure to the text in its original>?
Rosends:
The word play in the Bible surrounding the naming of
each of Jacob's children (and the names in the generations before) plus Esau's
punning on Jacob's name in invoking the similarly rooted "e-k-v" root
meaning "deceit".
How about the understanding of the word "chesed" as a reference to
righteousness and a stork?
How about the understanding of l'olam as l'aleim in the statement "zeh
shmi l'olam" in Ex 3:15? The text is rife with
such double word meanings.
GE:
I am sorry I did not say specifically the pun with the
words ‘etsem’ and or ‘yom’.
Rosends:
The sacrifice was not interred. It was eaten. At best,
the connection to the word "bone" is as a pun and that is being
charitable. What is amazing is that you believe that no one has gotten this
fairly simple pun right for 2300 years, based in scholarship and exposure to
the text in its original, and you, without benefit of reading the original,
have come up with a reading which is the correct one.
GE:
<The
sacrifice was not interred. It was eaten.> ---
Correct, the sacrifice was not interred, it was eaten!
It was buried in corruptibility, and assimilated with mortality. And “that
which remained”, “the next day”, far into the sand desert at the “Grotto in the
Rock”, “Succoth”, was “burned with fire”. The sacrifice was burned—it was
buried, “in dishonour”, “dust to dust; earth to earth”. It was Raised in
honour! “And Moses carried the bones of Joseph out with him” (like a sheaf on
his shoulders)— with honour “that selfsame day the Bone-Day” of the future
First and Head Sheaf before Whom would bow and stoop all the sheaves of the
children of
Rosends:
So you now have to reinterpret the word
"inter" to justify your
statement that the day is a day of interment? That's
bizarre. The sacrifice is not buried. Saying it is "buried in
corruptibility" has no linguistic or logical value.
.
GE:
All you have said, Rosends, amounts to saying, I, <invent this
"bone day" thing>, and to deny its very incidence right
where it is written 18 times, at least 16 of which are in the singular context
of the passover’s “Bone-Day”—“Day-Essential”—which provided the opportunity for
Israel to leave the plagued land.
Rosends:
It is, at best, a pun, an example of word play trying
to make an extended point IN ADDITION to the regular meaning in order to expand
and give ANOTHER level or dimension of meaning. Your claim that it rises to a
level beyond that is absolutely mistaken.
GE:
Collins English Dictionary, ‘pun’, the use of words or
phrases
to exploit ambiguities and innuendos in their meaning,
usually for humorous effect; a play on words.
That is what Rosends say, 18 instances of the mention
of “Bone-Day”—“great day sabbath … to its season … when they always had to KILL
the passover”, is supposed to mean --- God at his most serious, playing with
words and <cognates>, <lite beer> and <the turkey drumstick>.
Disciple:
'Bone day' would signify bone as a noun, not an
interred sacrifice. I don't think that really makes sense.
GE:
Rosends argued 'bone' is an Adjective rather than a
Noun; now
you turn it around. Whatever, it is the COMBINED
words making up the Nomenclature 'etsem yom' -- "Bone-Day" which is
Nomen-NOUN-Clature-Collection/Phrase for nothing else than THIS, DAY, the
“Bone-Day” of the passover.
Defining "Bone-Day" a <drumstick> makes it an eaten <sacrifice>. But its true meaning
being the DAY upon which the sacrifice was killed and eaten – “the fourteenth
DAY of the First Month" – puts an end to such <sad> ridiculing ‘explanations’.
Rosends:
The word play in the Bible surrounding the naming of
each of
Jacob's children (and the names in the generations
before) plus Esau's punning on Jacob's name in invoking the similarly rooted
"e-k-v" root meaning "deceit".
How about the understanding of the word "chesed" as a reference to
righteousness and a stork?
How about the understanding of l'olam as l'aleim in the statement "zeh
shmi l'olam" in Ex 3:15?
The text is rife with such double word meanings.
GE:
Something sounded familiar to me about the Jacob
instance. But admitted, this is above me. Thanks in any case; I accept what you
say. You have not provided one ‘pun’, ‘playing’ with the words either ‘yom’ or
‘etsem’. Quite understandable why not!
I still cannot see the bearing your examples have
on the 18
instances of 'etsem yom' for the passover's
"Bone-DAY", or that your examples can make any difference to its
meaning.
“etsem” and “yom” don’t have any of the <similar root> or
similar sounding and or instantaneous / accidental
similar or <double meaning>
like the examples you supplied reveal.
I could see ‘similarity’ in sound and letters in <l'olam> and
<l'aleim>
without knowing meaning or incidences of use.
But (having consulted three of the best Hebrew
concordances / lexicons and having perused the Hebrew in Exodus letter for
letter) I was able to find no <similar
root> or similar sounding letters or similar or <double> instantaneous and accidental <meaning> in the case of any of the occurrences of ‘etsem-yom’.
Rosends:
The Hebrew hasn't changed. It was the same before and
after 2011. The meaning was established a long time ago. As has been stated
repeatedly, the phrase "etzem yom" never happens. B'etzem happens.
hayom happens. But "etzem yom" simply never happens.
GE:
Sorry, I don't get it. "Bone-Day"
'gehtzem-yom', 'b'ehtsem-hayom' whatever, <happened>. Being mentioned 18, 20 times as some kind of
Burial-Day, and in Exodus having been "observed" a
"Feast" in which "ye shall Kill the passover" and
"THIS THAT NIGHT", "shall eat the flesh" and "the next
daylight shall burn that which remained" --- being DATED, "the
FOURTEENTH day of the First Month", 'b'etzem', 'b'etzemhayom' whatever,
HAPPENED! Yes, the Hebrew hasn't changed. It was the same before and after
2011. The meaning was established a long time ago even before the Torah was
written. But the meaning of the Hebrew ‘etsem-yom’ got lost through translation
into Greek 300 years BC.
Rosends:
The translation is not highly debatable. The reason it
includes nothing of "bone" is because the word has no place there.
That's like saying that the phrase should read "bone ocean" because
yom has the same letters as yam, ocean and the fact that it isn't there makes
every other translation of "day" highly debatable. The context is a
specific day on the calendar so it is called "that day." Trying to
read in Jesus strains everything.
GE:
Now you say <"b'etzem
hayom">, <includes nothing
of "bone">; then you carry on over <yom…>, which <…has the
same letters as yam, ocean>; and concludes, <…the fact that it [<yom>
- <"day">] isn't there makes every other translation of
"day" highly debatable.>
Then you contradict yourself, directly, making
nonsense of the nonsense you have just said, with stating, <The context is a specific day on the
calendar so it is called "that day.">
Exactly! The context is a specific day on the calendar
GIVEN IN THE CONTEXT IN THE TEXT: “the fourteenth day of the First Month”; so
it is called—not merely <"that
day">—that, is not true! It is called THERE in the context in the
text, written: “that selfsame BONE-DAY-WHOLE-DAY-DAY-OF-SUBSTANCE” from the
distinctive words ‘etsem’ – “Bone” and ‘yom’ – “Day” employed in the Adjectival
Phrase in full with Articles et al, or abstracted to the bone, ‘etsem-yom’.
It’s only PRETENDING that it does not exist; IT
EXISTS! It
exerts its word-power by its presence to give its
Substantive Noun-word meaning: ‘etsem’, which is, ‘Bone”.
The phraseology “Bone-Day” in the Scriptures it occurs
in, is not <usual usage>—
obviously not. It is specific and totally un-known in the <thought and styles of the Biblical era-- for
that matter…in Rabbinic, Medieval (and) Modern Hebrew>. Quite correct
and certain! Because the phraseology “Bone-Day” in the Scriptures as recent as
2011 only, has been uncovered and made known, and in the three years since has
obtained <highly debatable> and
debated, < meaning>,
already. Jews and Judaism has never seen, what understood, the passover’s
“Bone-Day”. It is a pil they won’t even try to swallow, but will spew out, most
definitely.
Nevertheless, scholars who are uninterested in any
issue about the meaning of <this
"bone day" thing> and have never thought of it, despite,
present it in its literal morphology and syntactical construct as collectively
and contextually meaning just what the separate words “bone (and) day”, spell.
These scholars with no ‘pun’ to excuse or innuendos to make, present this
literal phrase with both its word-parts ‘etsem’, and, ‘yom’, for “bone-day”,
and while not realising it themselves, state every occurrence of ‘etsem-yom’ as
an autonomous and self-explanatory expression of the reality of the “Bone-Day”
of Israel’s exodus.
Neither words “bone” or “day” if separated or isolated
or on their own or independent, or omitted altogether, would have carried over
the “Substance-and-BONE”-of
Rosends:
Of course, all of this is predicated on there being an
extant construct "etzem-yom" which never actually occurs.
GE:
<… there
being an extant construct "etzem-yom" which never
actually occurs>?!
A casual matter <of course> to you; to me—a total stranger to the Hebrew
language—, an insurmountable obstacle to the same complacent aplomb. I just
cannot understand how you can make a statement like this. You must learn to
reach laymen on their level, sir. You are far too high for mortals like me to
understand. <… there being an extant
construct "etzem-yom" which never actually occurs>?!
The <construct
"etzem-yom"> does <occur>
although it from the first has not been <extant>
in translations.
But it occurs in the Hebrew text which I have, the
Kregel edition of the OT Genesis and Exodus, and is referred to in the
Concordance I use, Wigram’s "The Englishman's Concordance” (book, not
website); as well as in Davidson’s ‘Lexicon’ also in my possession no better
than, exists.
It says in 'Englishman's', "The chief object
proposed by this work ... In the present state of lexicography it seemed in a
peculiar way desirable to lead each student to deduce his “meaning and
definition of words” … from the use made of them by the Holy Ghost.” May God
grant me the grace
Rosends:
Let me make a list for you and show you why you are
wrong.
You won't want to hear it. I understand. It isn't
easy, but here
we go. Note, it helps if you read Hebrew. You don't.
Therefore this will be wasted breath. But anyway
Gen 7:11
בַּיּוֹם
הַזֶּה
7:13
בְּעֶצֶם
הַיּוֹם
הַזֶּה
The specific day of getting on the ark
17:23, 26 (the specific day of circumcision)
בְּעֶצֶם
הַיּוֹם
הַזֶּה
Gen 50:20 (Joseph reassuring his brothers about how he felt and what God had
make happen on that day)
כַּיּוֹם
הַזֶּה
Ex 12:17 (establishing the 14th at night as Passover)
בְּעֶצֶם
הַיּוֹם
הַזֶּה
12:41 – connecting the date of the exodus to Passover
בְּעֶצֶם
הַיּוֹם
הַזֶּה
12:46 – the bone not being broken in the sacrifice (prefix “and”, the only time)
וְעֶצֶם
12:8, 12 on that night
בַּלַּיְלָה
הַזֶּה
12:51 the specific date of the exodus
בְּעֶצֶם
הַיּוֹם
הַזֶּה
24:10 – of the sky (no “day” at all)
וּכְעֶצֶם
הַשָּׁמַיִם
Lev 23:21 – establishing the specific date of Shavu’ot
בְּעֶצֶם
הַיּוֹם
הַזֶּה,
23:14 – until that Shavu’ot date
עַד-עֶצֶם
הַיּוֹם
הַזֶּה (you improperly transliterate as
"ad hadzeh etsem yom")
23:28, 29, 30 establishing the specific date of yom kippur
בְּעֶצֶם
הַיּוֹם
הַזֶּה
So unless you are saying that Passover, Yom Kippur, the day of a circumcision
and the day Noah got on the ark are all "bone days" you have a
problem. And unless you can show the grammatical use of the adjective
עֶצֶם as a noun (one way would be to show it with
the conjunction before it as conjunctions can introduce nouns) and explain why
the use of it an adjective means a noun, you have no legs (not one, not two and
certainly not three) to stand on.
And remember -- none of these constructions (none of them -- I'll say that
again, "none of them") has the construction you insist on "etzem
yom." It just doesn't happen.
By the way, the Hebrew of הַיּוֹם
הַזֶּה has no D sound in it.
GE:
Much appreciated!
Thank you very much.
Yes, I am saying that Passover, Yom Kippur, the day of
Abraham’s circumcision and the day Noah went into the ark are all
"bone days"!
Thanks that you saw that!
What I shall do now, DV, is,
First, to ask you why a Concordance like ‘The
Englishman’s’ uses <the construct> “geh-tzem” in immediate contextual
sequence with “yom”; and why do Young’s Analytical do the same (transcribed
‘etsem’ and ‘yom’ respectively); and why Davidson’s Lexicon contain the same
Hebrew <constructs> in the same
Scriptures?
Next, is to ask you, Why, please, do you not
transliterate the Hebrew for me?
Third. I shall now, DV, take this post of yours to
Professor
Combrink dean of the faculty Hebrew at the
Rosends:
Thanks. Tell him Rabbi Rosen says hi.
GE:
But before I do any of this, I herewith do tell you in
your face,
THIS: is YOUR rejectable fabrication, Quote—“ בְּעֶצֶם
הַיּוֹם
הַזֶּה,
23:14 – until that Shavu’ot date” End Quote And I will also tell you I am
no longer fooled with this specific, Quote—“Lev
23:21 – establishing the specific date of Shavu’ot
בְּעֶצֶם
הַיּוֹם
הַזֶּה,”End Quote
Rosends:
I don't know what there is to fooled by. The text is
pretty clear.
And you shall designate on this very day a holy
occasion it shall be for you; you shall not perform any work of labor. [This
is] an eternal statute in all your dwelling places throughout your generations.
כא.
וּקְרָאתֶם
בְּעֶצֶם |
הַיּוֹם
הַזֶּה מִקְרָא
קֹדֶשׁ
יִהְיֶה
לָכֶם כָּל
מְלֶאכֶת
עֲבֹדָה לֹא
תַעֲשׂוּ
חֻקַּת
עוֹלָם בְּכָל
מוֹשְׁבֹתֵיכֶם
לְדֹרֹתֵיכֶם:
GE:
Shavuot nowhere features in this place, at this time.
“God’s sacrifice” was the passover sacrifice and “this very Bone-Day” was “the
fourteenth day of the First Month” in verse 5 as in Exodus 12:6 and 17,18. “…an
eternal statute throughout your generations” i.e., Exodus 12:27; 41,42.
…we shall see what a real scholar has to say : Professor
Combrink. Just wait, God willing.
Rosends:
That sounds exciting -- don't forget to ask him about
definite
article prefixes and whether they introduce nouns or
adjectives. I'll bet he says "nouns."
GE:
Further: The whole of
Leviticus -- as Exodus, as Genesis -- is a Chiasm of smaller
Chiasms. Without taking the distribution of the rhythmic return of ideas
in these chiasms into account, one is prone to attribute wrong verses to the
wrong ideas and wrong ideas to the wrong verses. That is why Leviticus 23:21
does not give the fiftieth day in verse 20 the name of “Bone-Day”, but the day
“When ye reap the harvest” and “the corners” for the “first sheaf of
firstfruits” in verse 22!
Rosends:
You seem to be referring
to 23:22 which makes no reference to a specific day or holiday. It speaks of
"and when you harvest" which is not a single day at all.
When you reap the harvest of your Land, you shall not completely remove the
corner of your field during your harvesting, and you shall not gather up the
gleanings of your harvest. [Rather,] you shall leave these for the poor person
and for the stranger. I am the Lord, your God. כב.
וּבְקֻצְרְכֶם
אֶת קְצִיר
אַרְצְכֶם
לֹא תְכַלֶּה
פְּאַת
שָׂדְךָ בְּקֻצְרֶךָ
וְלֶקֶט
קְצִירְךָ
לֹא תְלַקֵּט
לֶעָנִי
וְלַגֵּר
תַּעֲזֹב
אֹתָם אֲנִי יְהֹוָה
אֱלֹהֵיכֶם:
GE:
Yes, 23:21 "selfsame day" and 22, "when
you reap" go
together; not 23:20 “wave the first loaves of
firstfruits” and 21 "the selfsame day Bone-Day".
“The first, first day ye shall remove leaven” Exodus
12:15, was “the very Self-Same-Bone-Day
ye shall eat neither bread nor parched corn nor green ears”—A DAY OF
FASTING—“the fourteenth day of the First Month when they KILLED the passover”
and “remove(d) leaven from your houses”.
Only the corners of the field of harvest was “reaped”
for only the first sheaf which had to be brought to the priest on the
“Bone-Day” for to be “waved before the LORD on the day after the sabbath” which
was the day after the day the first sheaf was cut. The first sheaf could not be
reaped on any other day than “the day they always KILLED the passover”— the
cutting of it just like the removing of leaven and leavened food, was one of
the main elements in PREPARATION for the Feast Day and sabbath of the passover
the next day.
“The very Self-Same-Bone-Day ye shall eat neither
bread nor parched corn nor green ears” … “Is not THIS the FAST that I have
chosen, to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens and let the
oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke? Is not THIS the FAST that I
have chosen to deal thy bread to the hungry and that thou bring the poor that
are cast out of thy house? When thou seest the naked, that thou cover him and
that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh? Then shall thy light break
forth as the morning and thy health shall spring forth speedily: and THY
RIGHTEOUSNESS SHALL GO BEFORE THEE: THE GLORY OF THE LORD SHALL BE THY REWARD!
Then shalt thou call, and the LORD shall answer; thou shalt cry, and he shall
say, Here I AM, when thou take away from the midst of thee the yoke, the putting
forth of the finger and speaking vanity [Colossians 2:13,14]; when thou draw
out thy soul to the hungry and satisfy the afflicted soul. Then shall thy light
rise in obscurity and thy darkness be as the noonday. The LORD shall guide Thee
continually and satisfied thy soul in drought, and make fat thy BONES. Then
Thou shalt be like a watered garden [Luke 23:43] and like a spring of water
whose waters fail not.” [John 4:14] Isaiah 58:6-11.
Rosends:
Gerhard Ebersoehn said: Why, please, do you not
transliterate the Hebrew for me?
OK:
Gen 7:11
-- bayom hazeh בַּיּוֹם
הַזֶּה
7:13
b'etzem hayon hazeh בְּעֶצֶם
הַיּוֹם
הַזֶּה
The specific day of getting on the ark
17:23, 26 (the specific day of circumcision)
בְּעֶצֶם
הַיּוֹם
הַזֶּה b'etzem hayom hazeh
Gen 50:20 (Joseph reassuring his brothers about how he felt and what God had
make happen on that day)
כַּיּוֹם
הַזֶּה kayom [Sic.] hazeh
Ex 12:17 (establishing the 14th at night as Passover)
בְּעֶצֶם
הַיּוֹם
הַזֶּה b'etzem hayom hazeh
12:41 – connecting the date of the exodus to Passover
בְּעֶצֶם
הַיּוֹם הַזֶּה
b'etzem hayom hazeh
12:46 – the bone not being broken in the sacrifice (prefix “and”, the only
time)
v'etzem וְעֶצֶם
12:8, 12 on that night
בַּלַּיְלָה
הַזֶּה baliyla hazeh
12:51 the specific date of the exodus
בְּעֶצֶם
הַיּוֹם
הַזֶּה b'etzem hayom hazeh
24:10 – of the sky (no “day” at all)
וּכְעֶצֶם
הַשָּׁמַיִם
u'ch'etzem hashamayim
Lev 23:21 – establishing the specific date of Shavu’ot
בְּעֶצֶם
הַיּוֹם
הַזֶּה b'etzem hayom hazeh,
23:14 – until that Shavu’ot date
עַד-עֶצֶם
הַיּוֹם
הַזֶּה (you improperly transliterate as
"ad hadzeh etsem yom") - od-etzem hayom hazeh
23:28, 29, 30 establishing the specific date of yom kippur
בְּעֶצֶם
הַיּוֹם
הַזֶּה b'etzem hayom hazeh
GE:
Again, Thank you very much. This helps me a lot!
For now ....
I don't see how the NAME of the day can be seen as
used (by me) as an Adjective. Yes, an Adjectival NOUN; that I understand, but
it seems you do not understand.
Rosends:
23:14 – until that
Shavu’ot date עַד-עֶצֶם
הַיּוֹם
הַזֶּה (you improperly transliterate as
"ad hadzeh etsem yom") - od-etzem hayom hazeh>
GE:
Thanks for correcting me. And thanks for correcting me
so
courteously. [Cut]
To this day Jews eat the last supper of the old year
in the evening of the fourteenth day of the First Month. They with it introduce
the feast of the removal of leaven, 'Bedikat Chametz'.
This was a serious matter from the first. If leaven
was found in one's house after the next morning of the fourteenth, he had to be
killed. Exodus 12:15c.
The fourteenth and fifteenth days of the First Month
was dated "the selfsame day" of the fourteenth before and at the time
"In THAT DAY... I came forth out of
“It came to pass in the selfsame day…” of first
“night”, then
“day” “…that the LORD did bring the children of Israel
OUT. Exodus 12:51.
There is only one explanation for the fact Israel had
to “EAT the FLESH (of the passover sacrifice) in that night—[of] the FOURTEENTH
day of the month—and that which remained in the morning—[of] the FOURTEENTH day
of the month—had to burn with fire” 12:6,8,10. The explanation is obvious:
In
But when
“In the night in which our Lord was betrayed”—the
night of the fourteenth—He told his disciples to “PREPARE, so that I might eat
the passover”.
Now as Fisherman said, <He Himself was the passover lamb which the disciples were figuratively
eating.> And He Himself, ATE the Passover of Yahweh by “SUFFERING the
pascha” : ‘pascha’ = ‘to SUFFER’.
Jesus WAS the Passover of Yahweh BY AND IN
ACT-OF-SUFFERING for the sins of many. It never is written in the Indicative
that Jesus ‘ate the passover’; because He WAS it and He ATE it by HIS,
SUFFERING of, it. Christ was the Bread
which the disciples ate; He was the Passover Himself which laid down his own
life by the very same power with which He would take up his life again “the
third day”.
Voice:
So much for 'As Jonah was.... 3 days and 3
nights..."
Jesus did rest on the Sabbath, even in death, but He
did not rest in the grave for just a little over 24 hours. 3 days, 3 nights.
.
GE:
At last some sensible reading!
Jesus did rest … even in death.
But God “loosed the pains of death”—that is, God
stopped Jesus’ conscious experiencing and feeling of the suffering of death the
painful wages of sin, with death: with death as Jesus “gave the ghost … the
ninth hour”. Then Jesus had entered into his ‘rest’ or ‘sleep’ in death. Twenty
four hours later on the next day the same hour of the day “mid-afternoon the
Sabbath nearing”, Joseph had closed the stone on Jesus’ grave and sleep in the
‘rest’ of his grave where He ‘slept in rest’ another 24 hours while God Himself
kept vigil over his body so that his “flesh saw no corruption in death” until
He would RISE FROM THE DEAD “IN THE SABBATH’S FULNESS OF FULFILMENT IN HIM, and
“God all his works finishing: RESTED” in Jesus’ Resurrection from the grave and
from the dead and the state of the dead and “entered into his own rest AS GOD
IN HIS OWN” --- having been “in the HEART, of the earth, three days and three
nights” OF “THE PLAGUE THAT WAS UPON HIM”—the plague of the Passover of Yahweh
“the WHOLE-DAY-BONE-DAY-OF-PASCHA-SUFFERING OF THE DEATH OF DEATH IN THE DEATH
OF CHRIST.
Christ’s Resurrection was his ultimate Rest.
Christ’s Burial was his pen-ultimate rest in the sweet
sleep of The Righteous.
Christ’s Death was his initial entering into his Glory
in
Victory.
Christ’s bodily suffering was Christ in triumphant
suffering under the hand of wicked men and the power of darkness;
Christ’s anxiety in spirit even unto death “IN THIS
THAT NIGHT” IN THE OLIVE PRESS IN THE VALLEY OF BLOOD, was conquering life
wrested from the grip of satan in the “smoky darkness of yellowish and orange
fire of Jasper and bright blue flames of Sapphire under the foundations of the
mountains in the depths of hell.
Conclusion:
<<<Unless
you are saying that Passover, Yom Kippur, the day of a circumcision and the day
Noah got on the ark are all "bone days" you have a problem. And
unless you can show the grammatical use of the adjective ‘etsem’ as a noun (one
way would be to show it with the conjunction before it as conjunctions can
introduce nouns) and explain why the use of it an adjective means a noun, you
have no legs (not one, not two and certainly not three) to stand on.
And remember -- none of these constructions (none of them -- I'll say that
again, "none of them") has the construction you insist on "etzem
yom." It just doesn't happen.>>>
Rule One…
<<the
grammatical use of the adjective ‘etsem’ as a noun (one way would be to show it
with the conjunction before it as conjunctions can introduce nouns)>>
What is wrong with ‘Rule One’…
It is no more than an assumption --- and a wrong
assumption at that ---, that ‘etsem’ - ‘bone’, is <<the adjective>>,
<<use(d) grammatically as a
noun>>. In actual fact all the above supplied incidences, are each,
cases of the grammatical use of the NOUN: ‘etsem’ as an Adjective— without
exception. And ‘Rule One’ as here quoted minutely, will illustrate and confirm…
So, How will the actual incidences illustrate and
prove that ‘etsem’ - ‘bone’, is a Noun used <grammatically> as Adjectival-Noun in the Nomenclatural Phrase,
‘etsem-yom’?
.
Rule Two …
<<…one way
would be to show it with the conjunction before it as conjunctions can
introduce nouns>>.
Bingo!
Incidences, examples, exhibits of <<ways to show it>> …
Genesis 7:11…13,
~ba-yom-ha-dzeh…b’-etsem-ha-yom-ha-dzeh~ “on-this-day…in-the
bone-the-day-this(-very-day)”, <the
conjunction before> and <introduc(ing)
the noun> ‘etsem’ - ‘bone’, being the Preposition “IN(-the)-bone …
on-the-same-day” ---<<the specific
day of getting on the ark>>.
Genesis 17:23,26, ~b’-etsem-ha-yom-hadzeh~
“in-bone-the-day-this”, <the
conjunction before> and <introduc(ing)
the noun> ‘etsem’ - ‘bone’, being the Preposition “…IN(-the)-bone”,
viz., “the-day-the-same-IN-(the-)bone(-day)” ---<<the specific day of circumcision>>.
Now, note the similarity, indeed the uniformity in…
Exodus 12:17, ~b’-etsem-ha-yom-hadzeh~ ---<<establishing the 14th at night as Passover
>>;
Exodus 12:41, ~b’-etsem-ha-yom-hadzeh~ ---<<connecting the date of the exodus to
Passover>>;
Exodus 12:51, ~b’-etsem-ha-yom-hadzeh~ ---<<the specific date of the exodus>>;
Leviticus 23:21, ~b’-etsem-ha-yom-hadzeh~ ---<<establishing the specific date…>> of passover;
Leviticus 23:28,29,30, ~b’-etsem-ha-yom-hadzeh~
---<<establishing the specific date
of yom kippur>>
And similarly…
Leviticus 23:14, ~‘ad-etsem-ha-yom-ha-zeh~ <the conjunction before> and <introduc(ing) the noun> ‘etsem’ - ‘bone’, <being the Preposition> ‘ad’ - “until” ---<<until that … date>> of passover.
…thus…
Exodus 12:8,12, ~ba-la-yil-hadzeh~ “this night” ---<<on that night>> of ~b’etsem-ha-yom-hadzeh~ “this selfsame
Bone-Day I have brought your armies out” verses 17,41,51— <the conjunction before> and <introduc(ing) the noun> ‘etsem’ -
‘bone’ being the Preposition “…IN(-the)-bone”, viz.,
“the-day-the-same-IN-(the)-bone(-day)”.
Re:
<<<So
unless you are saying that Passover, Yom Kippur, the day of a circumcision and
the day Noah got on the ark are all "bone days" you have a problem.>>>
So exactly because passover, Yom Kippur, the day of
Abraham’s circumcision and the day Noah got on the ark, are, all, "bone
days", I do not <<have a
problem>> at all … and therefore do not have to <<explain why>> the use of ‘etsem’ -
‘bone’—a Noun—, means an Adjectival Noun in the Nomenclatural phrase the
“Bone-Day” of the Passover of Yahweh specifically its
“Day-of-Burial-the-Whole-Day-BONE-Day”.
The objector is the one who has no ‘leg’—no
SUBSTANCE—no BONE—no CERTAINTY, <<to
stand on>>. And remember – every one and all of these <<constructions>> have the
construction <the conjunction before>
and <introduc(ing) the noun>
‘etsem’ - ‘bone’ being the Article or and some Preposition like “in-the-” or
“with-the-” or “until-the-” : “-bone”, viz., “the-day-of-substance /
the-day-in-its-wholeness / the-central-day / the-day-filling-in in-between
combining / holding together / containing in whole : BONE - ‘etsem’ : DAY -
‘yom’. It just happens to be written thus without exception --- as “BONE” -
‘etsem’ : “DAY” - ‘yom’ as the WHOLE day, “day and night” (Matthew 12:40 Jonas
1:17 Exodus 10:13,19 “all that day and all that night … THIS DEATH!”)
‘Etsem-yom’ - “Bone-day”
occurring in wider context…
Genesis 50:20, ~ka-yom hadzeh~
“like(-the)-day-the-same(-day)” with regard to the “bones” of Joseph. his
burial and grave (typical of Christ) ---<<Joseph reassuring his brothers about how he felt and what God had make
happen on that day>>.
Exodus 12:46, “And (no) bone of Him shall be broken”
---without saying “in that day”.
Exodus 24:10, “they saw God… and as sapphire and like
the bone / substance (of) heaven for clearness (the grave)”, ~ha sappir
ho-ch’-etsem~.
Exodus 12:42, ~h’-o-a-ha-la-yil-ha-dzeh-le-Yah-weh~-
“it-is-the-night-this-to-Yahweh” without saying of the “Bone-Day” of the
Passover of Yahweh.
Compare Deuteronomy 32:48 and Joshua 5:11 and 4:13 —
the “WHOLENESS” reached in the “Bone-Day” of the Passover of Yahweh.
Summary:
Because of all these specifics, what rabbi Rosends
avers, <<Ex 12:46 – the bone not
being broken in the sacrifice (prefix “and”, the only time) “the-‘etsem’”>>,
is mere opportunism.
Which goes to show there are several <prefixes> or and <conjunctions> other than the conjunctive,
<and>—viz.,
the Article, “the”;
Pronouns, “this”, “that”;
Prepositions, “in”, “on”, “at”;
Adverbs “until”; and
Adjectives, “same” / “very”,
—even Nouns,
which, in <<grammatical
use>> or <construction>,
<<as conjunctions>> or
and <prefixes>, <<can introduce>> or and <modify>, <<nouns>> like ‘etsem’ - “bone”— which Noun —as an Adjectival
NOUN-prefix /-conjunctive, again <modifies>
/ <introduces> the noun after
it, the word “day” in the <grammatical
use> or <construction>
(or, simply, in the phrase) of the Nomenclature, ‘Etsem-Yom’—“Bone-Day”.
If you can have a ‘Yom Kippur’, why not an
‘Etsem-Yom’? Why not an ‘Etsem-Yom-Kippur’ Leviticus 23:28,29,30? Why not an
‘Etsem-Yom-Pascha’?
Recapitulation
<<<once in the 5 books of Moses>>>
<<<the
word "hayom" (THE day) in the form of etzem once in the 5 books of
Moses (Lev 23:14), in the form of b'etzem (with the b- prefix indicating
in/on/at) 11 times.>>>
<<<the
word "hayom" (THE day)>>>…
It is not one word, <<<"hayom">>>; it is two words “the” - ‘ha’ and
“day” - ‘yom’— <<(THE day)>.
<<<the
word "hayom" (THE day) in the form of etzem>>>…
‘hayom’ is “the day” in the form of ‘hayom’ - “the
day”.
<<<the
word "hayom" (THE day) in the form of etzem once in the 5 books of
Moses (Lev 23:14)>>> = <<<Leviticus 23:14 – until that Shavu’ot date
עַד-עֶצֶם
הַיּוֹם
הַזֶּה (you improperly transliterate as
"ad hadzeh etsem yom") - od-etzem hayom hazeh>>>
That is one case of <form> and underlined by yourself.
<<<Exodus
12:46 – the bone not being broken in the sacrifice (prefix “and”, the only
time) v'etzem וְעֶצֶם>>>
= <<<Ex 12:46 – the bone not
being broken in the sacrifice (prefix “and”, the only time) “the-‘etsem’”>>>
This is case two of <form, <<od-etzem>>
or <<v'etzem>>— it is the
same principle of <form> you
said occurred < once>, but has
occurred twice now.
For all I know there probably will be more such cases
of <<the prefix indicating>>
the meaning of a Preposition or Article or a Conjunctive, directly before
<<<the word "hayom"
(THE day) in the form of etzem>>>, either <<in the 5 books of Moses>> or in
Joshua or in Ezekiel. Who would know? The witness of two witnesses must be
accepted according to the books of Moses.
O yes; and then there of course is the ‘usual’ usage
like in <<<Ex 12:41 – connecting
the date of the exodus to Passover
בְּעֶצֶם
הַיּוֹם
הַזֶּה b'etzem hayom hazeh>>>
“on-the-Bone-THE-Day-the-THIS(-day)” …which makes it seem to me there is NO
instance of <<<the word
"hayom" (THE day) in the form of etzem>>> WITHOUT <Prefix> immediately attached in front
of it! <<<It is never simply
written as "etzem yom." The word's meaning is dependent on the
context and object>>>
<<<It
is never simply written as "etzem yom." The word's meaning is
dependent on the context and object>>>…
WHAT IS <<the
context and object>>?
It ALWAYS is the Passover of Yahweh!
<<<Assuming
it means "bone" in relation to day is inaccurate as it operates as an
adjective, not a noun.>>>
No one has denied it.
But what is your <it> which <<operates
as an adjective>>?
<<<The
word etzem means "the essence of a thing" so it refers to bones…>>>
.
It is the Noun which <<operates as an adjective>>! <It>: ‘etsem’, is the Noun
which <<operates as an adjective>>.
<It> - ‘etsem’, is the Noun
which only is the Part-of-speech that takes a <Prefix> attached before it like no Adjective does!
<<<There is no such thing as
"bone-day". The phrasal construct in Hebrew has a word which, when
used as a noun refers to "bone" but which means "essence,
specific" when used as an adjective.>>>
Saying, <<<The phrasal construct in Hebrew has a word which, when used as a noun
refers to "bone" but which means "essence, specific" when
used as an adjective>>>, is saying there is, <such a thing as "bone-day">.
Saying, <<<The phrasal construct
in Hebrew has a word which, when used as a noun refers to "bone"
__but which__ means "essence, specific">>>, is hopeless
illogic. The <phrasal construct in
Hebrew>, ‘b’etsem-yom’ has a word—‘etsem’, a Noun, which refers to
"bone"-meaning-"bone”, <but
when used as an adjective means "essence, specific">, and in
the context of the full <phrasal
construct in Hebrew>, ‘b’etsem yom’, means, “on the day-essential of” /
“on the specific day of” the passover, namely “on The Bone-Day of” the
passover.
Then you people moan about my, English! You don’t know
the first principle of language in any language.
‘Etsem’ is Noun used as an Adjective in the <<Hebrew phrasal construct>>,
‘b’etsem yom’, which in the context of the passover, means “on the Bone-Day (of
the passover)”.
‘Etsem’ is NOT an Adjective used as a Noun in the
<<Hebrew phrasal construct>>,
‘b’etsem yom’ meaning no ‘day’, but who knows what nonsensical non-existent
<<specific essence>>.
<<<When
used in the adjective form construction with a following noun, such as in the
phrase בעצם היום, or
בעצם השמים, or
בעצם תמו, always has the significance
of "the very thing" or "the thing itself," as in
בעצם היום
הזה, "this very day," or
בעצם השמים, "the
very heavens," or בעצם תמו,
"in his very innocence.">>>
Who does not know it? Who argues about it?
<<<If
there were going to be such a ridiculous construction as "bone day,"
it would take a different form altogether>>>.
It may; it may not, and take the precise same <<adjective form construction with a following
noun>>— that Noun being “day” – ‘yom’.
It does not HAVE to <<take a different form altogether>>.
Fact is that in the context of the passover and other
‘days-like-burial-days’, the <<adjective
form construction>> EXCLUSIVELY is the <construct> wherein the Noun ‘etsem’ is followed by the noun
‘yom’ - “day” directly and in some exceptional cases farther away, e.g., in
Genesis 50.
Final finding:
This is the crux—nay, the
crater, the vacuum, the self-sucking-in into oblivion FLAW, of the learned and
with most <advanced degrees>
decorated Jewish rabbis not the worst ignorant Christian have landed in, THIS:
<<<…unless
you can show the grammatical use of the adjective
עֶצֶם as a noun (one way would be to show it with
the conjunction before it as conjunctions can introduce nouns) and explain why
the use of it an adjective means a noun, you have no legs (not one, not two and
certainly not three) to stand on.>>> … THIS: Rosends:
<<<That sounds exciting --
don't forget to ask him about definite article prefixes and whether they
introduce nouns or adjectives. I'll bet he says "nouns.">>>
26 01 15
http://www.edenics.org/explore/articles/the-bones-of-the-day/
The Bones of the Day
You may ask, what does Passover have to do with
Perhaps the most difficult passage in the entire
Passover story of Scripture occurs in Exodus 12:17. Here, the Israelites, that
tiny band of universal metaphors, are set to leave their oppressive site of
slavery and degradation “b’eZTeM haYom haZeH”, in — literally translated — “the
BONE of the day”. The word “eTZeM” means bone, from the first time that Adam
uses the word in Genesis 2:23, and this Edenic term is the ultimate source for
OSTEOMA (the bone tissue tumor) or the Greek bone, OSTEON.
Most bible translations have
a bone to pick with this difficult term, so they simply render it “on that
selfsame day” or “very day” — either way their translations are absurd.
Biblical scholars try
gymnastics to compare the word to related terms that do mean “itself” (ATZMo)
or OMeTZ, “strength.”
[bold GE] They sorely need a prooftext in an actual language before they could
understand this term, and other long ossified Semitic languages, like Akkadian,
are no help.
To the rescue comes the venerable language of Chinese,
Earth’s number one spoken language, which replaced some consonants with rising
and falling accents but otherwise changed little since it was refracted from
the Edenic gem at Babel and spread with the most prolific son of Japeth.
Chinese, like Biblical Hebrew, has large two-letter roots whose meanings form a
theme when noting the many three-letter roots or like-sounding words that
poured forth from the same source over the
millennia.
The Chinese root “zhong,” a reasonable match for the
Tzadik-Mem Hebrew bone of contention above, has several relevant meanings.
Among these are Middle Finger, Backbone, Center, Core, Noon and Midday. Yes,
there is nothing wrong with translating Exodus 12:17 as “the bone of the day”,
once we have the Chinese to teach us that the “bone” (eTZeM) is the middle and
strong core (oMeTZ).
Now we can understand that the Israelite slaves were
meant to leave in the backbone or middle of the day. This high drama was set
for high noon, lest someone think the slaves sneaked out on their own at dawn
or twilight. This historic highlight was well lit for all the world to see, for
all time.
(This short essay was originally published by the Root
& Branch Association’s information service, headquartered in
To close with, I repeat …
This is the crux—nay, the
crater, the vacuum, the self-sucking-in into oblivion FLAW, of the learned and
with most <advanced degrees>
decorated Jewish rabbis not the worst ignorant Christian have landed in, THIS:
<<<…unless
you can show the grammatical use of the adjective
עֶצֶם as a noun (one way would be to show it with
the conjunction before it as conjunctions can introduce nouns) and explain why
the use of it an adjective means a noun, you have no legs (not one, not two and
certainly not three) to stand on.>>> … THIS: Rosends:
<<<That sounds exciting --
don't forget to ask him about definite article prefixes and whether they
introduce nouns or adjectives. I'll bet he says "nouns.">>>
GE:
Is there a, ‘Bone-Day’ in
the Holy Scriptures of Christiandom?
John Gill commentary on
John 19:36
Our
LibraryCommentariesJohn
Gill's Exposition of the BibleJohnJohn
19
36 For these things were done
The not breaking his bones and piercing his side, and that not by chance, and
without design; but, that the Scripture should be fulfilled, a bone of him
shall not be broken; referring either to ( Psalms 34:20 ) he keepeth
all his bones, not one of them is broken; which if to be understood of the
righteous in general, had a very particular and remarkable accomplishment in
Christ; though a certain single person seems to be designed; nor is it true in
fact of every righteous man, some of whom have had their bones broken; and such
a sense would lead to despair in case of broken bones; for whereas such a
calamity befalls them, as well as wicked men, under such an affliction, they
might be greatly distressed, and from hence be ready to conclude, that they are
not righteous persons, and are not under the care and protection of God, or
otherwise this promise would be made good: nor have the words any respect to
the resurrection of the dead, as if the sense of it was, that none of the bones
of the righteous shall be finally broken; and though they may be broken by men,
and in their sight, yet the Lord will raise them again, and restore them whole
and perfect at the general resurrection; for this will be true of the wicked,
as well as of the righteous: and much less is the meaning of the words, one of
his bones shall not be broken, namely, the bone "luz", the Jews speak
of; which, they say F9, remains uncorrupted in the grave, and is so hard
that it cannot be softened by water, nor burnt in the fire, nor ground in the
mill, nor broke with an hammer; by and from which God will raise the whole body
at the last day: but the words are to be understood of Christ, he is the poor
man that is particularly pointed at in (Psalms 34:6 ) who, was poor in his
state of humiliation, and who cried unto the Lord, and he heard him, and saved
him; and he is the righteous one, whose afflictions were many, and out of which
the Lord delivered him, ( Psalms 34:19 ) whose providential care of
him was very particular and remarkable; he kept his bones from being broken,
when others were; and by this incident this passage had its literal fulfilment
in him: or else it may refer to the passover lamb, a type of Christ, (1
Corinthians 5:7 ) a bone of which was not to be broken, ( Exodus
12:46 ) ( Numbers 9:12 ) . The former of these passages is a
command, in the second person, to the Israelites, concerning the paschal lamb,
"neither shall ye break a bone thereof"; and the latter is delivered
in the third person, "nor shall they break any bone of it"; which may
be rendered impersonally, "a bone of it, or of him, shall not be broken;
or a bone shall not be broken in him"; and so the Syriac and Persic
versions read the words here; and in some copies it is, "a bone shall not
be broken from him"; and so read the Vulgate Latin and Ethiopic versions;
and he that violated this precept, according to the traditions of the Jews, was
to be beaten. Maimonides F11 says,
``he that breaks a bone in a pure passover, lo, he is
to be beaten, as it is said, "and a bone ye shall not break in it":
and so it is said of the second passover, "and a bone ye shall not break
in it"; but a passover which comes with uncleanness, if a man breaks a
bone in it, he is not to be beaten: from the literal sense it may be learned,
that a bone is not to be broken, whether in a pure or defiled passover: one
that breaks a bone on the night of the fifteenth, or that breaks a bone in it
within the day, or that breaks one after many days, lo, he is to be beaten;
wherefore they burn the bones of the passover in general, with what is left of
its flesh, that they may not come to damage: none are guilty but for the breaking
of a bone on which there is flesh of the quantity of an olive, or in which
there is marrow; but a bone in which there is no marrow, and on which there is
no flesh of the quantity of an olive, a man is not guilty for breaking it; and
if there is flesh upon it of such a quantity, and he breaks the bone in the
place where there is no flesh, he is guilty, although the place which he breaks
is quite bare of its flesh: he that breaks after (another) has broken, is to be
beaten.''
And with these rules agree the following
canons F12,
``the bones and sinews, and what is left, they burn on
the sixteenth day, but if that falls on the sabbath, they burn them on the
seventeenth, because these do not drive away the sabbath or a feast day.''
And so it fell out this year in which Christ suffered,
for the sixteenth was the sabbath day: again,
``he that breaks a bone in a pure passover, lo, he is
to be beaten with forty stripes; but he that leaves anything in a pure one, and
breaks in an impure one, is not to be beaten with forty stripes;'' yea, they
say F13, though ``it was a little kid and tender, and whose bones are
tender, they may not eat them; for this is breaking of the bone, and if he eats
he is to be beaten, for it is the same thing whether a hard or a tender bone be
broken.''
Now in this as in many other respects the paschal lamb
was a type of Christ, whose bones were none of them to be broken, to show that
his life was not taken away by men, but was laid down freely by himself; and
also the unbroken strength of Christ under the weight of sin, the curse of the
law, and wrath of God, and conflict with Satan, when he obtained eternal
redemption for us: and also this was on account of his resurrection from the
dead, which was to be in a few days; though had his bones been broken he could
easily have restored them, but it was the will of God it should be otherwise.
Moreover, as none of the bones of his natural body were to be broken, so none
that are members of him in a spiritual sense, who are bone of his bone and flesh
of his flesh, shall ever be lost.
F9 Bereshit
Rabba, sect. 28. fol. 23. 3. Vajikra Rabba, sect. 18. fol. 159. 3. Zohar in
Gen. fol. 51. 1. & 82. 1.
F11 Hilchot Korban Pesach. c. 10. sect. 1, 2, 3, 4.
F12 Misn. Pesachim, c. 7. sect. 10, 11.
F13 Maimon. Korban Pesach. c. 10. sect. 9.
Mitch:
What is it with you and
this obsession with bone day?
GE:
You are obsessed with
knowing your ignorance. I have the answer; you do not have one. I have peace in
this knowledge; you are plagued with unrest in your lack of this knowledge ---
my dear man. You do not know what you are missing. That's a pity.
OR:
Why not post all that
Gill wrote. It certainly makes more sense than the excerpt:
GE:
Thanks, Ol' Regular. You will agree many more expositors will tell you
the same.
But never say or ask more than what they say.
Specifically, Don't even think about THE DAY of this prophetic fulfillment.
For 2300 years the question has never been
asked— where do you [that's me] come from to think you have the answer?!
THE BEST rebuttal I have received so far has
been : <<It does not exist.>>
But I don't fear these mighty men of learning and integrity; not in their
hordes do I fear any men!
Because it was in closest nexus of his Suffering
of the Passover of Yahweh, that Jesus Christ EVERY MOMENT STEP BY STEP
"ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES" FULFILLED HIS "Bone-Day" :
"THIS THAT VERY BONE-DAY WHOLE-DAY"
1) of his suffering in dying the death of
death;
2) of his “passover” / “Gilgal” - “Roll-over” under the CLOUD of God’s PRESENCE
in death’s sleep of peace and rest;
3) of his TRIUMPH “RAISED BY THE GLORY OF THE FATHER”.
This is Jesus’ “Bone-Day”; this is what is
denied with mocking and ridicule. This is the irrefutable TRUTH of the core
reality of the Gospel of Jesus Christ “the SIGN of the prophet(s)”— the
Suffering Servant of the Lord in Triumphal Procession from the Table to the
Tabernacle of his Tomb “and His Name when being RESTED UP AGAIN: The
Walter:
So, I'm guessing that
your point is that Christ's sacrifice would have taken place on a different day
(Thursday?) rather than what Christians have been observing (Good Friday) for
2,000 years? What you call 'Bone-Day'? The Passover lamb was to be a "male
without defect," which is the same description given to Jesus. In
addition, when the lamb was roasted and eaten, none of its bones were to be
broken. But, what I have gathered from reading the articles on your website is
that you don't believe Christ died on Friday and that you assemble on Saturday
(Sabbath) to observe the Lord's Supper (paschal feast)? I'm asking because I am
having trouble following the articles. However, in one of your articles the
discussion that followed centered around Acts 2:42 'They were continually
devoting themselves to the apostles' teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer'. In the discussion I
noticed nobody questioned that the 'breaking of bread' was the Lord's
Supper but the debate was over 'when' this should occur.
I'm asking because I don't want to misrepresent
your position.
Tony:
I just did a Google
search for "Bone-Day" and "Bone-Day Christianity" and the
only hits I got were from Gerhard posting on this forum and on another forum in
June of 2014. Neither place posits any real scripture detailing this
"bone-day" nor what it means for us.
GE:
I shall do my best to go
slow.
Therefore let us begin at the beginning ... IN
THE SCRIPTURES!
Bone-Day [etsem yom] incidences
…in Genesis …
Genesis 7
“11 In THE SAME DAY [HADZEH YOM] all the
fountains of the great deep were broken up … 13 in THE SELFSAME WHOLE DAY BONE
DAY [etsem yom] entered Noah … into the ark.”
“…in the selfsame whole day bone day… [etsem
yom] …as when in the days of Noah an ark was being prepared the longsuffering
of God waited wherein souls through watery [grave] were saved … by the
Resurrection of Christ… For Christ has once suffered for [our] sins that He
might bring us to God, He being put to death in the flesh but quickened by the
Spirit.” 1Peter 3:20,21,18.
Genesis 17
“23 Abraham circumcised the flesh of their
foreskin in THE SELFSAME WHOLE DAY BONE DAY [etsem yom] as God had said unto
him …7 I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy Seed [Christ]…
26 in THE SELFSAME WHOLE DAY BONE DAY [etsem yom] (stricken in age) Abraham was
circumcised… And the LORD appeared unto him… pass not away from thy servant…
wash your feet and rest yourself under the tree… Abraham fetched a calf… a
young man hasted to dress it… And [the LORD] stood by them and they did eat.
And [the LORD] said, I will certainly return unto thee according to the time of
life; and lo, (waxed old) Sarah thy wife shall have a son… at the appointed
time I shall return.”
Genesis 50
“20 God meant to bring to pass as it is THIS DAY
to save much people alive. 21 Now fear ye not : I will nourish you and your
little ones. And he comforted them and spake kindly to them. 24 And Joseph said
unto his brethren, I DIE : and God will surely visit you and bring you out of
this land unto the land which He sware unto Abraham, to Isaac and to Jacob. 25
And Joseph took an oath of the children of Israel, saying, God will surely
visit you, and ye shall carry up from hence my BONES—26 SO JOSEPH DIED being an
hundred and ten years old : and [having been buried in a grave] they embalmed
him, and he was PUT IN A COFFIN in Egypt…”
The Book of Genesis ended with Joseph’s burial
day and future care of his bones—fulfilled in the Book of Exodus.
Bone-Day [etsem yom]
incidences
…in Exodus …
Exodus 12
“17 Ye shall observe the feast of unleavened
bread for in THIS SELFSAME WHOLE DAY BONE DAY [etsem yom] have I brought your
armies out of the land of Egypt: therefore shall ye observe THIS DAY… by an
ordinance for ever
18 in the fourteenth day of the (First) Month (6
Israel shall kill the passover)... strike the lintel and the two side posts
with the blood and none of you shall go out of his house… 23 For the LORD will
pass through to smite [with the plague] the Egyptians… The LORD will pass over
and will not suffer the destroyer to come unto your houses to smite you.”
Exodus 12
“41 Even THIS SELFSAME WHOLE DAY BONE DAY [etsem
yom] it came to pass that all the hosts of the LORD went out from the land of
Egypt—
42 it is a NIGHT to be much observed unto the
LORD for bringing them out from the land of Egypt : THIS IS THAT NIGHT of the
LORD… 43 THIS IS THE ORDINANCE OF THE PASSOVER…
46 In one house shall it be eaten; thou shalt
not carry forth ought of the flesh abroad out of the house; neither shall ye
BREAK / SEVER A BONE thereof.
8 they shall EAT the flesh in THAT NIGHT roast
with FIRE… not raw nor cooked
with water but roast with FIRE; head with legs and with the purtenance thereof…
10 and that which remain the next day ye shall
BURN WITH FIRE …
12 I will pass through THIS NIGHT … the PLAGUE
shall not be upon you.”
Exodus 12
“51 It came to pass THE SELFSAME WHOLE DAY BONE
DAY [etsem yom] that the LORD did bring the children of Israel out…
13 God led the people about through the way of
the wilderness of the Red Sea… and Moses took the BONES of Joseph with him for
he had straitly sworn the children of Israel, saying, God will surely visit
you; and ye shall carry up my BONES away hence with you.”
The Book of Genesis ended with Joseph’s burial day and
future care of his bones—fulfilled in the Book of Exodus.
Now Exodus ends with an apocalyptic vision of
Christ’s bones and day of burial…
Exodus 24:
10 They saw the God of Israel: and under his
feet as it were a paved work of sapphire stone [having been] THE SELFSAME WHOLE
DAY BONE DAY [etsem yom] as it were the body of heaven in his clearness …
Exodus 14:5,4 THIS DAY [of ‘etsem yom’] came ye
out in the month Abib… by Strength of Hand the LORD brought you out from this
place (of death) where no Bread of Life shall be eaten.
The Book of Genesis as fulfilled in the passover in Exodus is seen further expanded upon and
added to in Leviticus …
Bone-Day [etsem yom]
incidences
…in Leviticus …
Leviticus 23:
“21 Ye shall proclaim on THE SELFSAME WHOLE DAY
BONE DAY [etsem yom] … as ye shall REAP … the corners
of thy field… 10 When ye shall reap … ye shall BRING a sheaf of the firstfruits
unto the priest and on the day after the sabbath [it rested over] the priest
shall wave the sheaf before the LORD to be accepted for you 14 …the very
selfsame Whole Day Bone Day [ad hadzeh etsem yom] that ye have brought an
offering [of the passover lamb].
“14 The very selfsame Whole Day Bone Day” [ad
hadzeh etsem yom] encompassed…
“9 The LORD spake unto Moses…
“5 In the fourteenth day is the LORD’S passover
First addition: “sabbath rest day”
“6 and on the FIFTEENTH DAY of the month is the
FEAST…
“Seven days unleavened bread ye shall eat…
“7 In the first day is holy convocation…
“no servile work shall ye do.
“10 In it (is) a sabbath rest day [of the first
sheaf]…
Second addition: “first sheaf of firstfruits”
“11 On the day after the sabbath the priest
shall wave it—the first sheaf.”
“Three days thick darkness” encompassed “the
very selfsame
Whole Day Bone Day” [ad hadzeh etsem yom]” of
the First Sheaf.
The First Sheaf rested over in the darkness of
death and grave “on the sabbath that day great day sabbath”, “the fifteenth day
of the First Month” and “sabbath in between” of the passover, the day between
“the fourteenth day the very Bone-Day that ye brought an offering (of
sacrifice) and reaped and brought your sheaf, and “the day after the sabbath”
when “the Priest
wave(d) the First Sheaf”—
“on the sixteenth day of the First Month (when)
they finished to cleanse the sanctuary”.
Third addition: “fifty days”
“From… the day after the sabbath”—“the sabbath
day” after
“the selfsame bone-day” that the first sheaf was
“reaped from the corners of thy field” and was “brought to the priest” to rest
over “the sabbath day” before it would be “wave(d) on the day after the
sabbath” … “from the day after the sabbath begin count” FIFTY DAYS to Shavuot /
Pentecost!
“The LORD spake to Moses… 11 On the day after
the sabbath the Priest shall wave the First Sheaf”—
“on the sixteenth day of the First Month they
finished to cleanse the sanctuary.”
“15 Ye shall count from the day…” on which the
LORD vanquished the darkness of the plague.
The LORD of the “three days thick darkness” of
the plague, “on the third day”, “finished”.
“From the day after the (passover) sabbath,
begin count!” It does not say begin count after the day after the sabbath; and
it does not say begin count from the sabbath. The LORD commanded “count from /
with / on the day after the sabbath.”
Fourth addition ‘Yom Kippur’
to “THIS THAT VERY SELFSAME WHOLE DAY BONE DAY
[etsem yom]” : Yom Kippur Day of Atonement Day of Judgment—mid-year’s Little
Passover.
“46 That your generations may know that I made
the children
of
“27 …on the tenth day of the Seventh Month
“28 …ye shall do no work in “THAT SAME WHOLE DAY
BONE DAY [etsem yom]
“29 For whatsoever soul it be that shall not be
AFFLICTED IN THAT SAME WHOLE DAY BONE DAY [etsem yom], he shall be cut off from
among his people
“30 and whatsoever soul it be that doeth any
work in THAT SAME WHOLE DAY BONE DAY [etsem yom], the same soul I will
destroy.”
“THREE DAYS thick darkness” which in Exodus
coincided on and converged in and merged with “THIS THE SELFSAME WHOLE DAY BONE
DAY [etsem yom]”, “great day sabbath” of the passover of Yahweh and the “goings
out” of Israel out of Egypt, in Leviticus coincided on and converged in and
merged with “this the…” three times: “selfsame whole day BONE DAY [etsem yom]”
on the one day and “shabbath shabbathon … Day of Affliction and Atonement”, of
Yahweh who dwells “among his People”, the children of iasrael who now
“tabernacled”, “in, the land the LORD had sworn”— so “that your generations may
know that I-AM-THE-LORD your God and that I made the children of Israel to
dwell in booths WHEN I BROUGHT THEM OUT of the land of Egypt.”
Noteworthy is it that the fifteenth day of the
First Month and the tenth day of the Seventh Month were both on the Sixth Day
of the week, and that in both feasts “the day after the sabbath” of the feast,
was “the Seventh Day Sabbath OF THE LORD GOD”. In neither case “the day after
the sabbath” of the feast, was on the First Day of the week.
Therefore, by counting the single-day pertaining
to the tenth day of the Seventh Month thrice called “the selfsame whole day
BONE DAY [etsem yom]” as incidences relating to the matter at hand, the
Passover of Yahweh which was the first and main and original feast of Israel
and the LORD of Israel from which all subsequent feasts evolved, the number of
incidences of the use of the phrase ‘etsem yom’ applicable to the passover,
stands at 9 out of 12, or, 75%. But taking into account the 3, 4, proleptic,
anticipating and prospective instances of ‘etsem yom’ in Genesis 7, 17 and 50,
the number of incidence of its use for “the selfsame whole day BONE DAY [etsem
yom]” of the PASSOVER, is 12, 13 out of 12, 13 or 100%. Nevertheless <people
who actually have functional facility with Hebrew tell you> it <does
not>, and, <never, existed> and that <there is no
such thing as ‘bone-day’>.
So; let us go on …
Later and Institutionalised instances of the use of ‘etsem
yom’ …in Numbers, Deuteronomy
and Joshua …
…in Numbers, Deuteronomy and Joshua …
Numbers…
The words “bone” – ‘etsem’ and “day” – ‘yom’ do
not occur in a closed phrase in Numbers.
The most significant incidence in chapter 9:12
(Exodus 12:46) of ‘etsem’, “break / sever no bone of it” (John 19:36), bears
upon a fourteenth day of the First Month though, postponed to the fourteenth
day of the Second Month, but nevertheless “(kept) according to ALL the
ordinances of the passover … on THAT DAY…”, “…THE DAY THAT the tabernacle
(‘mishkan’ - place / rest-bed) —the tent (‘ohel’ - ‘covering’)—, was reared
over the ark (‘aron’ - “coffin”) of the testimony.” 9:9,12; 7:89.
“Thou broughtest up this people IN THY MIGHT
from among the Egyptians!” It was “the Whole-Day the Selfsame BONE-DAY” of the
passover, that the tabernacle was first reared over the mercy seat over the ark
of the testimony and the Cloud of the Presence of the LORD was upon and “as the
appearance of FIRE” covered withal, verse 15.
Numbers 9 contains an absolute incidence of the
Bone-Day of the passover, therefore. And so we have 14 out of 14 incidences of
“Bone-Day” being the passover’s day of the Dead being Buried—100%!
In Numbers 19 there is the clear connection with
the word ‘etsem’ - “BONE… One SLAIN…”, and “GRAVE”, verse 18.
In Numbers 24:8, “God brought
Virtually every incidence of ‘etsem’ - “bone”,
and the dark day(s) of Israel when the LORD brought them out of Egypt, are of
the essence, so much so that the final days in which Israel passed over out of
the wilderness into the land the LORD had sworn to bring them into, are
identical in Deuteronomy 32:48 and Joshua 5:11.
“The LORD spake unto Moses THE SELFSAME BONE-DAY
(#15), saying, Get thee up into this mountain… and behold the land of Canaan…
and DIE in the mount and be gathered unto thy people [that is, be BURIED]… So
Moses died there and the LORD BURIED HIM.
“The LORD spake unto Joshua, My servant. Moses,
is DEAD.
Now therefore arise, GO OVER this Jordan… Then
Joshua commanded… PREPARE, for WITHIN THREE DAYS ye shall pass over this
The people came up out of
The passover therefore had four days which were
“BONE-DAY”, but most important was “the fourteenth day” as seen in the examples
above. And in Joshua “after the passover on the fourteenth day of the (First)
Month, the fifteenth day of the First Month—without saying—, was “the Selfsame
BONE-DAY (they) did eat unleavened cakes”. Joshua 5:11,12.
So all “three days thick darkness” of the ninth
and tenth plagues, plus “the tenth day of the First Month”, were “the Selfsame
BONE-DAY” : BECAUSE OF BEING DAYS OF THE PASSOVER OF YAHWEH—17 out of 17 times.
So far in the Pentateuch all occurrences of the
Hebrew phrase, ‘etsem-yom’—“Bone-Day”, were PASSOVER BURIAL DAY occurrences.
Yet the learned say it does not exist. It does not exist?! It exists! It
exists, 100% as the BURIAL-DAY of the passover of Yahweh, the fourteenth and
fifteenth day(s) of the First Month most pertinently.
... and Jesus Christ
never had anything to do with any of all this; and all this never had anything
to do with Jesus Christ ... if we must believe those who say there is no such
thing as Jesus' Bone-Day.
Tony:
You keep saying that this
phrase is there, yet you haven't really explained what it is supposed to mean
and how it is supposed to be relevant to us today.
On the other web forum where you posted this,
you made a fairly grand statement that rediscovering the Hebrew text will open
up new understanding of the scripture:
QuoteGE:It's back to basics - back to the Hebrew
for the first time in history. That will put you on the way to the future,
because the translation of the Gospel will NEVER BE THE SAME AGAIN FOR YOU
after you have grasped the meaning of Jesus' Bone Day YOURSELF.QE
No offense intended, but
that statement seems to carry some sort of mysticism, almost like a Bible Code
type intention. I'm pretty sure people have been going back to the Hebrew for a
long time. This isn't the first time in history anyone has looked at the Hebrew
text.
And you say the translation of the gospel will
never be the same once you understand the meaning of Jesus's Bone Day. Yet you
haven't explained it. You've merely shown it's occurrences in the Old
Testament.
GE:
You touched upon many
aspects. It cannot all be explained in
one short sentence or
paragraph or even book.
But before anything else, not for the first time
in this very short discussion, come on, be honest and live up to Christian
principle of trust and objectivity, and kindly let it be the last time that I
must react to this kind of thing, <<<…that statement seems to carry some sort of mysticism, almost like a
Bible Code type intention.>>>
I HAD NO IDEA that anything like the “Bone-Day”
of the Passover of Yahweh existed or lurked somewhere hidden in the Scriptures.
Not the faintest suspicion! Now for the shock: while all along it was lying
open and dry on the surface like the bones in Ezekiel’s vision, WAITING for the
Voice of God to come together and resurrect with sinews and flesh and body
visible and real.
The “SUBSTANCE” of the “Bone-Day” is there in
the Scriptures very much alive. What I have above quoted FROM THE WORD OF GOD,
is what it IS: solidly is proving, namely, proving ITSELF!
Jesus’ Bone-Day is none of my or anyone in
history’s dreams, wishes or imagination or arrogation. It is most substantial
essence of God’s Truth you will find in the SCRIPTURES CONCERNING THE CHRIST
HOW HE OUGHT TO SUFFER AND RESURRECT for the salvation of you and me!
Take Jesus’ Bone-Day out of the Old Testament,
and remove the Gospel of Jesus Christ from the Old and, New Testaments. Which
tells you it HAS BEEN OF THE ESSENCE OF THE GOSPEL in the Scriptures all along
and despite its mysterious hiddenness ever since the first translation of the
Hebrew Scriptures.
When I was a youngster, I knew of two Violin
Concertos of Nicolo Paganini. In the ‘World of Music’ published in 1957, these
two concertos are listed. I still have one of—if not the—best ever performances
of those two concertos (by Rigiero Rici). Even he had no idea four more
concertos of Paganini lay hidden in obscurity waiting to be discovered.
Was it some dreamer or mystic who exposed their
existence? No, it was a sober detective so to speak. A detective is a person
who picks up ‘leads’ and ‘traces’ like a bloodhound, smell. But he has to be
awake, that bloodhound. Or he has to be AWAKENED. He must be awakened to a
peculiar smell by that smell HELD TO HIS NOSE, to follow it to its SOURCE.
So then, credit to the TRANSLATORS of the
Scriptures who put me on the trail after the BONE of the “Bone-Day” of Jesus
Christ “Our Passover” and “Lamb of God” in type “killed on the fourteenth day
of the First Month”, returned to dust “the following day…on the fifteenth”, and
“carried through” the Red Sea “into the Land the LORD sware to give” Him ---
“the Kingdom of his dear Son”.
That was how you and I, received entrance into
the Kingdom of God—through Jesus of Nazareth on Bone-Day in his grave “HEWN IN
ROCK” in the “Bone-Day” of his Burial.
You know of another way? Of some trick to fool
God with and bypass Jesus’ GRAVE “on Bone-Day”? You know of some ecstasy, some
dope or potion to offer Him on a reed to intoxicate his senses and we under the
influence of the same ourselves, could slip in unawares?
Well, I don’t.
Woody:
Is this making any sense
to anyone else?
Con:
No
GE:
Says who? He who does not
understand, of course. And more
probably has no desire to understand...
Con:
I have no clue what you
{GE}'re conveying, but I'm gonna put a "whoa there" on you with this
post...
GEQ... and Jesus Christ never had anything to
do with any of all this; and all this never had anything to do with Jesus
Christ ... if we must believe those who say there is no such thing as Jesus'
Bone-Day.QE
Jesus stated, Ye
search the Writings, because ye think in them to have life age-during, and
these are they that are testifying concerning me;
All scripture, Old and New
Testament, has to do with Christ and Christ has to do with it. This bible we
cherish is Jesus' autobiography penned by holy men of God who wrote it under
the inspiration of the Holy Spirit....every word of it, in some way, points to
Christ...
Tony:
...
you say the translation of the gospel will never be the same once you
understand the meaning of Jesus's Bone Day. Yet you haven't explained it.
You've merely shown it's occurrences in the Old Testament.
GE:
The passover’s Bone-Day
explains itself which was why <<the
translation of the gospel will never be the same>>!! The translation
of the Gospel is what proves it never will be same again! EXACTLY!
Here is some information for you which every
Christian in the world has had in his possession for about a century long
already.
Anybody with help of the internet can test the
truth of what I am telling you now, for himself. You can prove it with only
your own language, English!
Notice the changes made in the TRANSLATION of
the New Testament since the end of the nineteenth century and start of the
twentieth century. Now those changes are more obvious if the ‘old’ English
translations are compared with translations of other languages of the twentieth
century. For example, the first African language the Bible was translated in,
was ‘Tswana’, and the Translator was Moffat, an Englishman missionary. He
translated the King James Version. He did not translate the Greek.
Changes or differences between the KJV and
Tswana were insignificant.
Suddenly mid-twentieth century, changes became
substantial and meaningful, and—above all—UNIVERSAL. The changes in the new
English translation became very much the same than in Turkish for example. Or
in Afrikaans, my tongue. Or in Dutch from which Afrikaans developed. And so in
any language one can think of around the world.
That proves all new translations came from an
orchestrated and CENTRALIZED effort. In fact in those days the ‘dynamic
equivalent method’ to translate the Bible started to get momentum.
I was on the school benches then; had no desire
to know about Bible translation then.
The market for new translations got bullish
again in the seventies and eighties. And I was a ‘middle aged’. Now I have seen
the New International Version by that time while the new Afrikaans translation
was prepared for publication. This translation was way back in the fifties
actually made a beginning with. So I warned specifically pertaining Mark 15:42
Matthew 27:57, that the New International Version’s PERVERSION should not be
followed, and that “when the even was come”, should not be made “as evening
approached”—NIV, or, “late noon”—the New Afrikaans Translation of the fifties,
‘Die Blye Boodskap’!
But what happened?
The translators in reaction against their better
knowledge and in agreement with the popular, universal trend, WENT AHEAD with
copying the New International Version! ‘Die Bybel, Nuwe Afrikaanse Vertaling’
was published with Mark 15:42 Matthew 27:57 saying, “laat die middag”—‘late
noon’ instead of “when evening had come”.
What was or is the significance?
The significance was that “ALL THIS…” WHICH WENT
BEFORE “…happened the day before the Sabbath” (Living Bible), instead of all
this which HAPPENED AFTER or which CAME AFTER Mark 15:42 Matthew 27:57 John
19:31,38 Luke 23:50.
What did or does it mean?
It means that where Jesus’ crucifixion and death
had happened before the evening had come, his burial now also had happened
before the evening had come.
It means that everything which would and which
eventually did happen after sunset (—that Joseph obtained the body of Jesus and
in the closing of “that day” closed the grave—), now happened while it was
“late noon” and ”evening was approaching”.
It means—AS THEY SAY—, that Jesus was ‘buried on
Friday before sunset and the start of the Sabbath’.
It means Jesus was crucified and died and was
buried THE SELFSAME DAY—‘Friday’. So that the Church observes Good Friday,
Still Saturday and Easter Sunday—‘Resurrection Sunday’.
That is what you get when you CORRUPT the
SCRIPTURES that say Jesus’ “WHOLE-DAY BONE-DAY” of the Passover-of-Yahweh was
“the following day ye shall burn with fire that which REMAINED” of the
Sacrifice and return the body to the earth, and inter and bury Him.
Tony:
I'm pretty sure people have
been going back to the Hebrew for a long time. This isn't the first time in
history anyone has looked at the Hebrew text.
....
you haven't explained it. You've merely shown it's occurrences in the Old
Testament.
GE:
<<<...sure people have been going back to the
Hebrew for a long time.>>>
And when they could not make progress, they resorted to the Greek of the 70
JEWS --- who also were clueless and at a loss to the TRUE meaning of the
Hebrew.
Moses needed Christ to be understood; those Jews were clueless about Jesus
Christ as well.
Ezekiel's bones in the valley of bones ...
Was it you who wrote <<holy men of God who wrote it under the
inspiration of the Holy Spirit....every word of it, in some way, points to
Christ...>>?
No? Well I'm <convicted> you were in agreement with <Convicted1>...
However, I can assure you this is, <<the first time in history anyone
has looked at the Hebrew text>> from
the perspective of the Bone-Day itself!
Tony:
GEQ However, I can
assure you this is, <<the first time in history anyone has looked at the
Hebrew text>> from the
perspective of the Bone-Day itself!QE
I bolded a statement of yours above, because
I'm curious. Just as a side bar, who exactly are the 70 Jews you are
referencing here?
GE:
The ('famous') ‘seventy
(‘LXX’) men’ referred to by one Aristeas who called himself a ‘writer’ in a
[fictitious?] letter, who in 72 days finished to translate “the Jewish Law”
[which description for the OT Scriptures I doubt they would have used]. Anyway
the LXX were actually 72— six ‘Jews’ out of each tribe of the children of
Tony:
Okay, so just so that I'm
clear on this: You, a native speaker of Afrikaans, have discovered something in
the Hebrew text that not even 72 men who lived in the 3rd century BC and who
actively spoke Hebrew alongside Koine Greek were able to determine? Seeing as
biblical Hebrew was a relatively in-use language up until the Roman conquest of
AD 70, then these men would've known what they were talking about.
GE:
Correct; they did not
know what they were talking about.
There are several reasons for stating this.
One. As you can see the story about the origin
of the LXX is a bit of a fairy tale.
Finished in 72 days? Without Google?!
70 gentlemen, six out of each of twelve tribes?
Twelve tribes? By +-250 BC? Were there not by
then 11 or just 1 tribe left? My history is bad.
Were there 66 books comprising the Law of Moses?
My maths is worse than my history.
Nevertheless, states the foreword to my edition,
"We
have now to speak of the labours of Origen in connection with the text of the
Septuagint. This learned and enterprising scholar, having acquired a knowledge
of Hebrew, found that in many respects the copies of the Septuagint differed
from the Hebrew text. It seems to be uncertain whether he regarded such
differences as having arisen from mistakes on the part of copyists, or from
errors of the ORIGINAL TRANSLATORS THEMSELVES." [emphasis GE]
I think that will be enough for now. Anyhow
there is more.
But you know what puzzles me most?
The fact the LXX translates the Hebrew Relative
Pronouns which are used in conjunction with the Adverbial <phrasal construct> ‘etsem yom’,
literally correct, with “THAT day” - ‘EKEINEH hehmera’ [[I’ll, DV., shall show
you that later.]] But they literally REFRAIN from translating or trying to
translate the <phrasal construct>
‘etsem yom’ ‘etsem’ and ‘yom’ - “bone and “day”, IN ANY WAY.
That means much more than meets the eye. That
means exactly what does not meet the eye, so that exactly what the 70 thought
they had COVERED up, THEY THEMSELVES would in the last analysis (and ‘last
times’) have EXPOSED—which was, that they DID NOT KNOW what the <phrasal construct>, ‘etsem yom’,
mean!
Therefore do not say I say I discovered the
Bone-Day. Here you see who discovered it. THE TRANSLATORS!
The identical thing which happened with me and
the TRANSLATION FRAUD that went on with “THE SELFSAME WHOLE-DAY BONE-DAY of Our
Passover in the Gospels.
If somebody must be blamed for it, blame the
translators. If someone might be thanked for it, you must rather thank God and
his
Tony:
Well, the trick is you
are basing this theory off a Hebrew construct, "etsem yom,"
that simply does not occur in the Hebrew, unless you begin disassociating the
individual Hebrew. There are occurrences of "hayom" and occurrences
of "b'etsem", sometimes in close conjunction, but never as simply
"etsem yom," as you are arguing.
Didn't take much Google searching to find that
one out.
.
GE:
Hehehehe parrot!
You'd be a worse 'copyist' than those Origen had
in mind. If you were a GOOD ‘copyist’ though, you would have had to COPY
18—that’s right, 18!—, REAL occurrences of the <phrasal construct> 'etsem-yom' --- to transliterate the phrase
the way Dr Robert Young did in his ‘Analytical Concordance’. Or like Wigram
transliterates it in his ‘Englishman's Hebrew and Chaldee Concordance of the
Old Testament', <"geh'-tzem>-inseparable-continued-after-by-<yom>
in closed sequence of context!
I see those <advanced degreed> 'Jewish scholars' whom you are parroting here,
have trained you well in their wayward ways. Maybe you are they! Surely thou
art one of them for thy speech betrayeth thee.
Ahhh! Therefore I shall wait and give you more
rope to hang yourself with ---the very selfsame rope they, hanged themselves,
with!
So give us here on BB what they say next ---they at whose candle thou lit thine own mighty sun.
Tony:
Sooooo...doing a search
on Google means I'm now a "parrot?" Well, trying to have an actual
debate and discussion over this just went out the window. Keep thinking you
have discovered something no one else has ever seen in scriptures that men have
been studying for thousands of years. I'm out.
GE:
Very graceful exit!
Before you close the door behind you, just one
thing that may give you some solace in your loneliness hereafter, Consider the
simple truth the thing discovered has been something no one else has ever taken
the pains to see in the HEBREW Scriptures and has been studied for thousands of
years FROM THE GREEK LXX.
Please man. Then leave in peace, please man.
.
Mitch:
Do you not see that he is
a troll?
Tony:
I see it, Rev. I don't
mind playing with the trolls from time to time, because I find it interesting
the things they can throw out. Like GE's obsession with this unfounded
"bone-day" or SBM's obsession with misquoting and misappropriating
the scripture in 2 Cor 4:3-4. Doesn't mean I'm buying into it.
GE:
What glorious
image of the Gospel of Christ and God is smiling upon me now.
Ja.
Christiaan Gerhardus Ebersöhn
All Sunday-Resurrectionists Refuted
Wednesday and Friday Crossites Thrashed Shredded and
Trashed
Part Eight
27 01 15
http://www.biblestudents.co.za
http://thelordsday.wordpress.com/books/
ISBN